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Questions for my First HPDE for me in feb (VIR)


Sleepy_Steve

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I did a hyper drive last march at VIR. I loved the experience, much more so than the AutoX's I've done previously. So I signed up for the Feb event at VIR. (finally some motivation to get the car ready for it) I have a couple things I'd like some advice on.

 

1 - BRAKES -- I encountered some pretty bad fade last time on Hawk pads (HPS or Preformance ceramic I think). I think a lot of it was due to having to brake more than once because of cars in front of me not braking nearly as late as I was comfortable with.

 

To fix it, I picked up some carbotech (XP) pads and fresh rotors for them. As well as some higher temp valvoline brake fluid. I also plan to try and get some advice from the instructor at the Feb event on proper braking technique to make sure I'm doing the right thing for what I have. If the problem persists... I think I may pick up some stainless lines and fab up some real brake ducting to the rotors.

 

Is this an appropriate plan of action to resolve my brake fade issue?

 

 

2 - VIDEO -- I landed a point and shoot camera for Christmas, and it can shoot decent continuous video. Enough for a session on track I think. I'd like to record the sessions so that I can study my behavior later and identify places I can make improvements to my driving.

 

But, how can I mount it safely? Are there any acceptable ways to mount it w/o a roll bar to mount it to?

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I'd step up beyond the parts-store Valvoline and look at ATE or Motul (I'm a Motul fan)... you'd be surprised how much that extra 50-100* helps

 

between that and the pads you should greatly decrease your fade issues

 

 

on camera mount, the only way I've seen is via a rollbar. I don't know for sure one way or another if those headrest style camera mounts will pass tech. is there anyway to attach it to the rear shelf behind the seats in a 240?

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Unless you're in a full on racecar, the Valvoline Synthetic brake fluid is fine. It is more tolerant of mixing with other fluids and has a higher wet temp than most high dollar race fluids.

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You should be good on the brakes, although I would switch to ATE Super Blue next time (IMHO, Motul is overkill for you right now).

 

On the camera, I don't think it's necessary at this point as a training device. Your in car instructor will provide you with an infinitely more/better information than you will get looking at a video with your untrained eye.

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1 - BRAKES -- I encountered some pretty bad fade last time on Hawk pads (HPS or Preformance ceramic I think). I think a lot of it was due to having to brake more than once because of cars in front of me not braking nearly as late as I was comfortable with.

 

To fix it, I picked up some carbotech (XP) pads and fresh rotors for them. As well as some higher temp valvoline brake fluid. I also plan to try and get some advice from the instructor at the Feb event on proper braking technique to make sure I'm doing the right thing for what I have. If the problem persists... I think I may pick up some stainless lines and fab up some real brake ducting to the rotors.

 

Is this an appropriate plan of action to resolve my brake fade issue?

You're definitely doing all the right things. Keep in mind, those Carbotechs will only work well when they've got some heat in them and they will continue to work well with lots of heat. VIR Full gives plenty of time to cool the brakes between hard braking zones. If the weather is cold, be prepared to block off any ducting you route to the brakes.

 

Also remember to heat the brakes up on your warm up lap. Let your instructor know and he/she should provide some guidance.

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Unless you're in a full on racecar, the Valvoline Synthetic brake fluid is fine. It is more tolerant of mixing with other fluids and has a higher wet temp than most high dollar race fluids.

 

Most likely you didn't expirience fluid problems but over heated your pads. Hawk HPS are not very good for track use. (been there, done that) A set of track pads (and rotors) is the way to go.

 

I'll second the up on the Valvoline. I've used it many times in my Neon for SCCA road racing and my Civic Si for Time trials with no problems. ATE Super Blue or gold is the next step up. For HPDE you don't need the super expensive stuff. .

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if you're getting fade, its cheaper than balling a car up

My reasoning in a nutshell for getting race pads. Good to know I've done the right thing with the brakes. Watching out for them cooling down too much will be a change, but I'd prefer being able to cool them down vs having them outside their effective temperature range after the second lap. Thanks for the feedback on brakes.

 

As for the camera mount... does any one know if you can just use a cross bar between the B pillars? I'm still using the stock restraint system, so this wouldn't be like a B pillar cross bar of death for a racing harness I don't think... Or would it?

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Any mounting method that securely attaches the camera to the vehicle would be fine. It could extend from the "B" pillar, just make sure if it's a bar that it's used as a camera mount only. If you could in any circumstance come into contact with the metal it must be padded.

 

See the CCR. 11.4.17 quoted below:

 

Camera Mounts - Video camera mounts should be approved by tech before entering the course at every event. Cameras should use at least one (1) bolt to attach the camera to the mount; and at least one strap should be used to secure the camera. Remote cameras, including “lipstickâ€

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I have soem EBC Yellow pads, Motul and steel brake lines with the stock rotors on the War Goat. I've experience no fade at all with heavy braking on this 4000 pound monster. Probably the best investment for the money I have made for the car.

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At this early in the game it really makes no difference what pads you use. Use a good fluid. The ATE superblue is cheap and performs well. You should also set up some brake ducts. This could be as simple as getting some 8$ aluminum expanding 3" duct from home depot and hanging it under your front valence, route it toward the center of the rotor. You might want to remove or modify your stock backing plates if necessary.

 

The reason I say the pads dont matter....is that once you have the above items in place and hone your braking abilities to work within the limits of your equipment, then stepping up the pad material later will take your game to the next level.

 

I have found that most hpde'rs use WAY too much brake and thus get into fade for too quickly. Dont upgrade the pads (big money), when the improvement needs to be made between the seat and the wheel.

 

Best of luck and stop by the Renntag Racing pit at the first event.

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I have found that most hpde'rs use WAY too much brake and thus get into fade for too quickly. Dont upgrade the pads (big money), when the improvement needs to be made between the seat and the wheel.
Hey, I resemble that remark! I'll have new pads for VIR.
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Frankly, I disagree. But when I stop by at the event, I'll be sure to try and reach a common ground with you on the issue.

 

I should be easy to spot. There shouldn't be too many 240s there.

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I have soem EBC Yellow pads, Motul and steel brake lines with the stock rotors on the War Goat. I've experience no fade at all with heavy braking on this 4000 pound monster. Probably the best investment for the money I have made for the car.

 

I'll second the comment about the EBC Yellows. As good as the Mintex 1155s I used to run at half the price.

 

And I was very sceptical about trying the Yellows since the Reds I tried were pretty worthless.

 

Alan

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Frankly, I disagree. But when I stop by at the event, I'll be sure to try and reach a common ground with you on the issue.

 

I should be easy to spot. There shouldn't be too many 240s there.

 

There's probably a happy medium on this issue for a novice driver to get into real threshold braking without the back of his mind being filled with horrifying fade-related what-ifs.

 

On the one hand, Renntag is probably right in that the best brake pads on earth won't really cure the real brake fade issue, probably just cover them up. On the other hand, Renntag isn't giving you his car with street pads on them to go tear up the track, it's your car, so it's easy to see where your coming from Sleepy.

 

Having driven my car at TWS a few times (reasonably fast track) and experienced plenty of brake fade on fully stock braking equipment, I feel your pain. There's nothing more terrifying than letting a GT3 pass you late in a straight only to watch him spin right in front of you going into the corner...then pushing the WOAH pedal and feeling mush.

 

That being said, I addressed the issue with good fluid, and stainless braided lines and completely resolved the issue. Now the stock pads start to get too hot and it's simply a message to me that I'm not doing my job. The fade starts, but it doesn't become severe in the same rapid manner as the stock system did. All things in moderation...

 

Bottom of the line: guys like Renntag have been doing this for a helluva lot longer than I have, or you have, or most anyone else that's posted here has. Open your ears and your learning curve might just improve drastically.

 

Phillip

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I have soem EBC Yellow pads, Motul and steel brake lines with the stock rotors on the War Goat. I've experience no fade at all with heavy braking on this 4000 pound monster. Probably the best investment for the money I have made for the car.

 

Really? I destroyed a set of Yellows in 2 days at NSS. Just disintegrated. Swore I'd never run them again.

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I have driven plenty of cars on track with bone stock brakes. If you over use them, they fade. You can do the same with the higher temp pads. With that in mind, the difference is in the driver. Early in your driving skill development it is best to save money on pads by using either stock or slightly better than stock stuff in the same price range. Working within the limitations of your equipment is going to payback huge dividends in long term skills.

 

As for the mention above of the car spinning after braking, again this is not an issue. regardless of your equipment, you should always be looking for the positive goal, in this case, the path around the spun vehicle. It would be best to go around the outside, but either way the tracks we run on can handle 4 cars wide, door handle to door handle.

 

Still to this day, I get to drive other people's cars beyond what they do with them as they are interested to see if I may or may not experience the same issues that they have. Often times I cannot get the car to perform much better than the owner has, I just learn the limitations of the equipment and stay within those boundries.

 

I dont claim to know everything, I think I never will, but by sharing what we all have learned, we can collectively bring more to the table.

 

Look forward to talking with you at VIR.

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I'll second the comment about the EBC Yellows. As good as the Mintex 1155s I used to run at half the price.

 

And I was very sceptical about trying the Yellows since the Reds I tried were pretty worthless.

 

Alan

 

I tried some reds. They seem fine for street applications. Ceramic. Low dust. The yellows though perform much better on my 2 ton monster.

 

 

Really? I destroyed a set of Yellows in 2 days at NSS. Just disintegrated. Swore I'd never run them again.

Maybe it is my braking style. Street and HPDE I tend to brake early and light and apply gradual increasing pressure til just before turning in rather than romping on the brakes at the last second.

 

My Yellows lasted an entire weekend at VIR with Chin motorsports and they offer a 30 minute morning open warm up session, four 30 minute sessions throughout the day and a final 90 minute open session. I averaged maybe 3 hours a day for two days and still ended up with about 75% of the pad remaining.

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I would aim for the inside of them, if they "two-feet-in" like they should, they're going to the outside...

 

True, if they are still in motion it is best to aim for the inside line.

 

HOW EVER.

 

If the spun vehicle comes to rest mid turn, and the approaching driver is having brake fade, it would be best to take the outside path as to avoid unintended contact due to understeer.

 

Sorry I didnt clarify that better.

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...

 

On the one hand, Renntag is probably right in that the best brake pads on earth won't really cure the real brake fade issue, probably just cover them up. On the other hand, Renntag isn't giving you his car with street pads on them to go tear up the track, it's your car, so it's easy to see where your coming from Sleepy.

 

...

 

Bottom of the line: guys like Renntag have been doing this for a helluva lot longer than I have, or you have, or most anyone else that's posted here has. Open your ears and your learning curve might just improve drastically.

 

Phillip

You've pretty much said a lot of my thoughts on the issue.

 

For me getting better pads and fluid is more of a safety net than any thing else. Ducting was just that bit I put on hold for the time being. I'm sure there are other ways to go about it, but for me this made the most sense. I need to talk with people in person and discuss the pros and cons of other courses of action I could have taken instead.

 

I don't disagree with renntag because I don't think he knows what he is talking about - far from it. Its that I'm not sure if an 'any pad will do' approach is right for my situation or not. I might respect the heck out of someone's competency on a given topic, but as a general rule - I don't take someones word as god. For me that normally requires a face to face discussion on the subject making note of each others mutual points of view so that both can make the most well informed contributions to the discussion as possible.

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Cool, glad we're on the same page then Sleepy.

 

 

 

I would aim for the inside of them, if they "two-feet-in" like they should, they're going to the outside...

 

True, if they are still in motion it is best to aim for the inside line.

 

HOW EVER.

 

If the spun vehicle comes to rest mid turn, and the approaching driver is having brake fade, it would be best to take the outside path as to avoid unintended contact due to understeer.

 

Sorry I didnt clarify that better.

 

The GT3 ended up stalled and facing me on the outside of the horseshoe. I scrubbed enough speed off to pass inside safely thankfully. If she had been mid-track I would have certainly aimed outside and gone for the wider arc. Asking less from the tires on the wider arc prevents the chance of understeering straight into a $100k+ car like you said. No one wants to see that

 

Phillip

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In November at VIR I watched a 100K Porche and a new Vette bite the bullet at the Roller Coaster and Hogpen. They were in different sessions but nose dived at the same place. Bad part: For both it was their first lap of their first session. So technically neither completed a full lap.

 

Luckily no one was injured. Well, excpet for the wallets of the drivers.

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But luckily enough, wallets are not people

 

Yeah, the roller coaster scares me a bit. I really need to take the whole thing slower so that I can get a better setup for the front straight. I hope I wont enter it too fast again, that was interesting to say the least. - I should be making a list of the things I need to know I should work on the next time I'm on track.

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Just my $.02:

 

Scenarios:

 

1. As a beginner in a car with stock brakes, my brakes fade based on my using them beyond their capacity. I have to miss a session or two and fix the problem with more stock parts [bleed the fluid, swap pads, maybe change rotors if necessary]. So I've learned that I cannot do this again or I'll miss more sessions... HOWEVER I still don't know the limits of my equipment and I've missed valuable track time. On the other hand, if I keep doing this, I'll eventually learn where the limits are and learn to drive within those limits [we hope!].

 

2. I'm still a beginner, but I upgrade to some or all of the aforementioned equipment, including but not limited to pads, rotors, lines, fluid, and ducting, and I still brake 'wrong', but have no [or much reduced] fade because the system can handle what I'm throwing at it. As a bonus, I get to finish all of my sessions. What do I learn about my brakes and my braking zones? Do I know where the limits are of my stock OEM equipment? Do I care? Possibly!

 

So I guess it depends on what your goals are. Do you want to learn to drive a car with OEM style brakes on a track and learn their limits? If not, then I guess that is not such important a factor as turning faster laps with brakes that are more appropriate for the track. I guess at that point you are learning the limits of the 'upgraded' brakes vs. the 'stock' brakes.

 

Hopefully there was a cohesive point in there somewhere

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