Neutered Sputniks Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Sorry, but a 4pt isn't an option for me. I refuse to put a roll bar (4pt/full cage) into a daily driven car. The odds are far greater that I'll be in a non-rollover accident than a rollover. And any accident with a roll bar and no helmet (except maybe a rollover, and I say maybe because a rollover with a roll bar doesn't mean there's no head trauma) is more dangerous than an accident without a roll bar. If my only option to track the car is a roll bar of any kind, I'll just have to find another hobby to throw money at... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STRINGER Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Sorry, but a 4pt isn't an option for me. I refuse to put a roll bar (4pt/full cage) into a daily driven car. The odds are far greater that I'll be in a non-rollover accident than a rollover. And any accident with a roll bar and no helmet (except maybe a rollover, and I say maybe because a rollover with a roll bar doesn't mean there's no head trauma) is more dangerous than an accident without a roll bar. If my only option to track the car is a roll bar of any kind, I'll just have to find another hobby to throw money at... Whats wrong with a 4 point? It has to be safer then the factory hoops if in fact your s2000 has them. I cannot touch my head with or without a helmet on my roll bar. As far as a hardtop without a roll bar...Of course check with your local head tech for your region. But I would imagine it would have to have the safety plates installed to make it a non removable roof to pass inspection. I could be wrong on this but thats my understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honda-Junky Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 If you don't feel comfortable putting a rollbar in your car because it is a daily driver, nobody is going to fault you. If you want to run your convertible on track with NASA, you will need to comply with all of the NASA rules, which are more stringent for you because you have a convertible. If I were you, I would think about buying a beater CRX or something of the sort. Many people buy a beater track car because they don't want to make a daily driver into a dedicated track car. Also, You said that you had harnesses in your car. Are you aware that the harnesses will keep your body locked in place in the event of a rollover and you wont be able to adjust your upper body at all? Almost everybody that is on this site will tell you that they would never use harnesses without at least a 4 point roll cage for safety reasons, but since you have the oem rollover protection, it may be a different story. Good luck and hope to see you at the track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nasaregistrar Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Sean - would a hardtop suffice as rollover protection for an S2000? or would it require a 4 point bar underneath no matter what? I will have to confirm, but I think the hard top is OK on an S2K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neutered Sputniks Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 If you don't feel comfortable putting a rollbar in your car because it is a daily driver, nobody is going to fault you. If you want to run your convertible on track with NASA, you will need to comply with all of the NASA rules, which are more stringent for you because you have a convertible. If I were you, I would think about buying a beater CRX or something of the sort. Many people buy a beater track car because they don't want to make a daily driver into a dedicated track car. Also, You said that you had harnesses in your car. Are you aware that the harnesses will keep your body locked in place in the event of a rollover and you wont be able to adjust your upper body at all? Almost everybody that is on this site will tell you that they would never use harnesses without at least a 4 point roll cage for safety reasons, but since you have the oem rollover protection, it may be a different story. Good luck and hope to see you at the track. Yeah...but I want to take the S to the track. It's not just about being on the track, ya know As for the 6-pt harness, I did a lot of research into it before I installed the harness. As far forward as I sit in the car, the stock roll-over protection is barely too low to pass the broomstick test. That being the case, since the overwhelming majority of accidents are NOT rollovers, I feel comfortable wearing the 6pt harness in my DD as in the majority of accidents, I will be far more protected than the stock seat/belt. This is where the problem lies: I know I'm short enough to do so with minimal increase safety risk to myself. However, I do not wish to install a similar system in the passenger side where I can't be sure that every passenger to ever ride with me would not be put to a higher risk of safety. The S2000 cab is too small to safely install a 4pt without wearing a helmet. In most cases, the bar is mere inches from the driver/passenger's head(s). A distance easily traveled in an accident. Again, I sit far enough forward to not feel myself to be in extreme danger - however, my passengers are likely to sit closer to the bar thus increasing their risk for head trauma (I'd much rather put myself at risk than my passengers...that damn responsibility bit, lol). I have thought about having a shop custom fit taller hoops in place of the OEM hoops (far enough back that they're not an issue in an accident), but I'm not sure of the legality since I believe NASA rules require that a rollover bar be a true 4pt (or cage). And again, I can only extend the OEM hoops a few inches and still be able to clear them with the soft top. While that would make me safer in case of a rollover, they still might not provide adequate protection for my passenger. (As you can tell, I've put a lot of time and thought into this...it's unfortunate that I can't seem to find a way to enjoy my S on the track and on the road ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 (edited) the event organizers are kinda forced into this by their track insurance (and couldn't put on an event without it) so its between a rock and a hard place all around man Edited February 21, 2008 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neutered Sputniks Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 the event organizers are kinda forced into this by their track insurance (and couldn't but on an event without it) so its between a rock and a hard place all around man Believe me, I understand. It's just frustrating to want to take such a finely tuned vehicle on the track, where it belongs...and I can't... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerkat Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 If I am not mistaking there were S2000 running at CMP with the factory hoops only. NASA-SE put on the event. Some cars are being allow to run with the factory hoops. It may depend on the track if it is allowed. The following is straight out of NASA it can be found in the HPDE section talking about convertibles. "A factory roll bar such as those found on a Honda S2000 may fulfill this requirement, but “style bars” or “show bars” found on some other cars would not work. (If you have a question about your car, call the NASA office.) Road racing with NASA requires a full cage (defined as 6 or more mounting points). " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neutered Sputniks Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 If I am not mistaking there were S2000 running at CMP with the factory hoops only. NASA-SE put on the event. Some cars are being allow to run with the factory hoops. It may depend on the track if it is allowed. The following is straight out of NASA it can be found in the HPDE section talking about convertibles. "A factory roll bar such as those found on a Honda S2000 may fulfill this requirement, but “style bars” or “show bars” found on some other cars would not work. (If you have a question about your car, call the NASA office.) Road racing with NASA requires a full cage (defined as 6 or more mounting points). " I know...this is why I was asking for clarification. I never had any problems running my current configuration at PIR. I, perhaps mistakenly, am under the impression that PDA and NASA are combined up here in the NE? Is that not the case? PDA has the stricter requirements, which is why I started inquiring into how I would be affected...lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 its one of those things that is just plain going to vary based on the track's rules VIR doesn't, but alot of SE region tracks will allow it... to be sure you can run everywhere the bar is the way to go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neutered Sputniks Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 its one of those things that is just plain going to vary based on the track's rules VIR doesn't, but alot of SE region tracks will allow it... to be sure you can run everywhere the bar is the way to go Yeah, I just wish I could afford to make the S into a track queen. I don't want to give up it's daily drivability...(until I can afford a 2nd one as a DD) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honda-Junky Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Yeah...but I want to take the S to the track. It's not just about being on the track, ya know You could take the S2000 on track if you wanted too, but you say it will be unsafe as a daily driver . You seem so concerned about safety yet you have harnesses and your excuse is that most accidents are not rollovers so your safe. Mugen makes a rollbar, you should look into it. Can you post some pictures of your setup with you in the car so we can see how safe it is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neutered Sputniks Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Yeah...but I want to take the S to the track. It's not just about being on the track, ya know You could take the S2000 on track if you wanted too, but you say it will be unsafe as a daily driver . You seem so concerned about safety yet you have harnesses and your excuse is that most accidents are not rollovers so your safe. Mugen makes a rollbar, you should look into it. Can you post some pictures of your setup with you in the car so we can see how safe it is? Easy there, killer. No aftermarket roll bar for the S is safe in a daily driver. They all are too close to the seat (not necessarily mine, but my passenger's for sure). I measured the angles on the harness, and they're within the safe range (10-15 degrees). My only concern with the harness is the low OEM rollover hoops. However, as I'm short and just barely fail the broomstick test and rollovers are far less likely to happen in daily driving, I'm willing to take the risk for the added safety of a 6pt in the incredibly more common non-rollover accidents. My passengers, however, would not necessarily be as well protected as I am. And for the record, there is quite the debate about harnesses vs OEM protection in a rollover. As the OEM seatbelt allows excessive movement in ANY accident, it is inherently less safe than a harness. The only time a harness is less safe is in the event of a rollover, and that's a hotly debated point as in a rollover, the OEM protection does not necessarily mean you won't have spinal injuries (due to not being locked down as well). How many rollovers do you see off the track? Remember, I'm looking at HPDE, NOT wheel to wheel. While a higher chance of rollover does exist in HPDE than on the street, I don't feel it's enough that I should sacrifice the daily drivability of my S for those 2-3hrs a month (maybe) I'd be on the track. I suppose I could always just wear a helmet when tooling around town Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kishg Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 sounds like your trying to reach a compromise that is too hard to do. i'd get a beater for the track. if you insist on running the s2k, get a hardtop and be done with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honda-Junky Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Mugen is not aftermarket for Honda...Mugen is to Honda as TRD is to Toyota. The mugen rollbar replaces the OEM hoops and looks like it is set way back compared to the hoops. The Mugen rollbar may possibly meet NASA specs, but I have seen a post on another forum where they said it did not meet SCCA Solo 1 specs. Anyways, good luck and see you at the track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerkat Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 When I ran a convertible I used the Bolt-In AutoPower 4 pt. with removable horizontal and diagonal. I never did remove until I sold the car. I do know that there are many people who use a bolt-in bar and remove it after an event. They may not do but a couple of events a year. Lots of people to it with race seats as well. It allows them to keep unmodified DD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neutered Sputniks Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 When I ran a convertible I used the Bolt-In AutoPower 4 pt. with removable horizontal and diagonal. I never did remove until I sold the car. I do know that there are many people who use a bolt-in bar and remove it after an event. They may not do but a couple of events a year. Lots of people to it with race seats as well. It allows them to keep unmodified DD. As far as I know, the only rollbars made for the S are the Mugen, Safety21 and Cusco bars. None of which are "easily removed"...lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neutered Sputniks Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 sounds like your trying to reach a compromise that is too hard to do. i'd get a beater for the track. if you insist on running the s2k, get a hardtop and be done with it. That's why I was asking for clarification, no one's been able to say for certain whether a hardtop is sufficient roll-over protection. I'm also concerned about the PDA (since PDA and NASA appear to be combined in the NE) rules that require driver and passenger restraint systems to match... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kishg Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 sounds like your trying to reach a compromise that is too hard to do. i'd get a beater for the track. if you insist on running the s2k, get a hardtop and be done with it. That's why I was asking for clarification, no one's been able to say for certain whether a hardtop is sufficient roll-over protection. I'm also concerned about the PDA (since PDA and NASA appear to be combined in the NE) rules that require driver and passenger restraint systems to match... call pda and ask joe. my car is there getting seats, i'll ask if you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STRINGER Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 sounds like your trying to reach a compromise that is too hard to do. i'd get a beater for the track. if you insist on running the s2k, get a hardtop and be done with it. That's why I was asking for clarification, no one's been able to say for certain whether a hardtop is sufficient roll-over protection. I'm also concerned about the PDA (since PDA and NASA appear to be combined in the NE) rules that require driver and passenger restraint systems to match... I have watched and read this forum topic build into what seems a impassable point of direction on Nuetered Sputniks questions. If you are in New York and run with northeast region. Contact the regional director to point you to the NE Head Tech that will answer all your questions. Joe Casella / Joe Triolo 1372 Main Ave. Clifton, NJ 07011 973-253-3900 [email protected] Obviously you have done your research on this and have made your mind up already on what you want to do. Fellow NASA members can only offer you information that they know to help you make a choice in what "you" want to do. Just a thought about the roll bar or aftermarket hoops and your concerns for safety and the passenger. No one ever brought up roll bar padding. Many arguments could be brought up and debated on this from many points on safety. But that is not the issue here. You want a clear answer to your questions that obviously based on your planned stage of race craft requires the attention of a lead tech in your venue to inform you to a yes you can or no you cant answer. Everything boils down to who your going to run with and which track you plan on runnng. There are variables which you need to investigate based on which tracks you want to run. Everyone has to plan for this. It is just a fact of the sport. I really wish I could give you the answer...but I am not a NASA Tech inspector and I can only offer you opinions and direct you towards the people that can give you the answers your looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neutered Sputniks Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 sounds like your trying to reach a compromise that is too hard to do. i'd get a beater for the track. if you insist on running the s2k, get a hardtop and be done with it. That's why I was asking for clarification, no one's been able to say for certain whether a hardtop is sufficient roll-over protection. I'm also concerned about the PDA (since PDA and NASA appear to be combined in the NE) rules that require driver and passenger restraint systems to match... call pda and ask joe. my car is there getting seats, i'll ask if you want. And I appreciate your sincerity. I thought posting here might get me some of those answers... Worth a shot, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOTORGOSPEL Ministries Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 Hello Neutered Sputniks, Generally speaking (not specific to the S2000), a hardtop without a roll bar cannot be counted on to save the life of the occupant in a triple-digit rollover. Given the variety of ways a car can flip, barrel-roll, tumble etc., nobody can reliably predict whether a triple digit rollover without a roll bar will be fatal or whether the occupant will walk away without a scratch. There are too many variables involved to do anything other than attempt to evaluate the odds and decide whether it is worth the risk. Your other posts show a lot of diligence in doing your homework (which I applaud). I recommend searching a CHP database or similar for post crash photos of 10 to 20 rollover accidents from the street (ie sans roll bar) so you can get some feel for what the roofline looks like afterward. It won't address other variables such as helmet and harness but you will get some feel for whether the roof is crushed down to the dashboard or whether the roof held up. That will give you an at least somewhat statistically-significant feel for the odds. Best wishes and God be with you Neutered Sputniks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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