Red Tornado Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 If I read the change correctly in announcement we can use either till next January in AI but come Jan 2009 we have to use R888's. I want to make sure to order tires and prepare accordingly. This would also save many of us from having obsolete tires on the car or on rains come 2009. John, wanting to make sure before I order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Not quite. "NASA’s other spec tire programs will remain on the RA-1 for the balance of 2008, but will begin using the R888 on January 1, 2009 as the RA-1 is phased out by Toyo in favor of the R888." RA1s for 2008. R888s for 2009. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 I hate the idea of running important end of the season races on worn out tires OR getting stuck with a couple sets of fresh, yet no longer legal tires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 OR getting stuck with a couple sets of fresh, yet no longer legal tires. Do like us poor guys do: buy one set, run 'em until you cord them, buy another set. Or, sell them to me at the end of the season for pennies on the dollar and I'll run them in AIX. Rains? What are Rains? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWL Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 As posted above, it's RA1's for this year and R888's for 2009. As for what to do with the old RA1's when 2009 rolls in we will continue to allow them for practice sessions so you can burn them off then. We will also allow R888's for practice sessions this season so you can get some test data in prior to the mandate for 2009. Thanks for asking. -JWL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 If I read the change correctly in announcement we can use either till next January in AI but come Jan 2009 we have to use R888's. I want to make sure to order tires and prepare accordingly. This would also save many of us from having obsolete tires on the car or on rains come 2009. John, wanting to make sure before I order. 275/40/17 R888's haven't even hit the states yet...last I checked. also from the tread pattern, they don't look like a very good rain tire even in full tread!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 I saw that pricing was out on the tires at retail and that should mean the tires will be available pretty soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWL Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Guys- The tires are here so keep trying. I believe Ron Cortez at http://www.aimtire.com has some in stock and the info we have suggests that there are plenty out there for you. -JWL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 The bottom line for us is that our new car will have new 14" brakes from performance friction. It will require a 14" wheel. I refuse to be forced to buy the most expensive tire on the market in order to run that car in AI. there is a $548 price difference before taxes from 17 to 18" R888 for a set of four. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Sounds like you need to run AIX or stick with 17s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWL Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Rob- The 18 Inch RA-1 goes for $307. The 18 inch R888 goes for $342. Unless I missed something in my math, that's only an increase of $140 or so when the tires change over. 18's ain't cheap and since you've chosen the bigger brakes, you just have to live with the costs. -JWL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Sounds like you need to run AIX or stick with 17s. LOL...one requires a complete rebuild of the car(aix) and the other means changing back to 13" brakes. Neither is practical. If the 14" brakes/18" wheel rule does not effect the competitive balance, I would consider it. But since it probably will and 18" will be required, I will lobby against having to run 18" R888's and prepare the car in question exclusively for SCCA competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Rob- The 18 Inch RA-1 goes for $307. The 18 inch R888 goes for $342. Unless I missed something in my math, that's only an increase of $140 or so when the tires change over. 18's ain't cheap and since you've chosen the bigger brakes, you just have to live with the costs. -JWL I believe what Rob is referring to is the cost from a 17" RA1 which was the old "top of the heap" tire, to the new "top of the heap" R888 which is an 18"...There is a HUGE cost increase. Rob, I agree with your disappointment in rising costs but the SCCA is going to cost you more too. For the most part, Toyo and the AI rules sort of have us by the balls...which in my short racing experience, i have figured out to be the general cost of racing and rules creep. Hope we don't lose you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 On costs. App Tire is our at the track supplier. Here are their costs for R888s the first price is for full tread and the second price for shaved. http://www.racetire.com/products/toyo_r888.htm 275/40ZR17W 168010 9.0-9.5-11.0 29 25.7 11.0 11.9 1653 51 809 $211 $221 275/35ZR18Y* 162800 9.0-9.5-11.0 28 25.7 11.0 12.0 1709 50 809 $343 $358 Here is the current RA1 price 275/40ZR17 236780 9.0-9.5-11.0 29.1 8 25.7 10.9 1653 $198 $208 Here are the 18" prices for BFG(R1) at Tire rack. 275/35ZR18 Blackwall Serv. Desc: 87W Load Rating LL Price: $269.00 (each) and for Hoosier(R6) at Tirerack 275/35ZR18 Blackwall Load Rating LL Price: $282.00 (each) The R888 is $89 more expensive that the BFG R1 and $76 more than the R6. From experience I can tell you that the BFG R1 lasts nearly as long as an RA1. As I run both NASA and SCCA I can tell you that one of the things that I liked about NASA was the tire costs were less. With the changing rules NASA's tire costs are going from $50-$60 a tire less to $70-$90 more. That's not a step in the right direction. If I were not bringing it up, somebody else would be soon enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 If the R888 is anything like the RA1 in terms of wear, and I imagine it will be very similar, you are still going to get more useful life out of the Toyos than you would out of the other options you mentioned, especially the Hoosiers. So even if there are cheaper initial-cost tires, you have to look at the total cost of tires for the season. As JWL said, if you want to play with the big boys running 18s, that's part of the price you pay to go fast, "assuming" 18s are the faster choice, and there is certainly no guarantee of that. You could always run CMC, where a set of tires lasts half a season or more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Matt, with respect I am speaking from experience when I tell you that the BF Goodrich R1 DOT racing tire holds its speed and treadware as long as most of my AI friends are comfortable running their RA1's. Hoosiers are out in 4 or 5 cycles, that is true. The Goodrich lasts longer than even the Kumho V710. If it were cost effective, I would not be complaining. But its not and so, I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 You also have to consider the totality of what the Toyo relationship offers to NASA as a whole, including all the other classes that run their spec tires. Is BFG or Hoosier stepping up to offer the kind of contingency and cash payouts that Toyo has provided, especially at the Nationals? You're asking for that relationship, and the benefits it offers to many regional AI racers, to be tossed out so you can use a cheaper tire. You do still have the option to continue running on the cheaper 17s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DHarsay Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Do the R888's need to be shaved as the RA1's? Or is this a different animal altogether? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Yes, they do. Thus the full tread and shaved pricing above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 . You do still have the option to continue running on the cheaper 17s. Not if you want to run at the front... Also your argument about Toyo supporting with contingencies...yes, they do but only the top 3 or 5 guys...who will probably be running 18's! I too hate the new 18" tire rule and I want to run at the front like I have been...but I can't afford the additional costs to step up to 18's and will stick with the 17's as long as I can....I have 16 I need to use up this year anyway! I doubt we are going to see a whole lot of folks going to 18" wheels/tires this year but there are a couple of moneybags racers that will and that's fine. Hopefully, things will even out before 09 and the rule will get peeled back to the way it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tornado Posted January 25, 2008 Author Share Posted January 25, 2008 Thanks JWL for the answer and letting us run them in practice. I may run them in an enduro to see any differences, etc.. I will be curious if they are quicker or slower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 don't the nasa enduro rules require you to run on the spec tire for the NASA class you usually run in? Been about 2 months since I read those rules but I may have remembered it incorrectly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 Yes, they do. However, running a non-spec tire makes you an AIX car for enduros which inturn allows you to use a a dry brake and dump cans and change more than one tire per pitstop. In my case, though, I run SCCA Enduros on BF Goodrich tires. We had a class win and an overall 2nd at the ARRC 3 hour race in November. AI cars in 3 hour enduros would be forced to make extra pit stops because they are not allowed to fuel more than 10 gallons per stop and they are also not allowed to change more than one tire. Which can be dodgy when you are road racing a nose heavy V8 Mustang. For us we would run as an AIX car even with the Toyo's on in an Enduro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 The bottom line for us is that our new car will have new 14" brakes from performance friction... I refuse to be forced to buy the most expensive tire on the market in order to run that car in AI. Sounds like you need to find 17s that fit or go run AIX. How come all the sudden everyone NEEDs 14" brakes? I'm on 12" brakes, get a reality check, we're SPRINT racers. Just because you want to have a dual purpose car doesn't mean that the rest of the series needs to conform to your wishes. Have a spindle for each setup and change it before the enduro. People really are forgetting the grass roots origins of this class... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 You think that most of the guys feverishly mounting 14's to their spindles are other than the top sprint race guys? You also think its no advantage? The guys that I have been running with in AI over the last year have been running thru 13" brake rotors like water. In sprint races. Wilwoods, Stop Techs, kyro treated.... I know its seems like the fast guys in my region are going 14. It has nothing to do with a dual purpose race car. In my case I have two cars and can run 17's if I need to, but on 13" brakes that will set me at a disadvantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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