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Ryan F.

What is most important to keep HC racing even  

31 members have voted

  1. 1. What is most important to keep HC racing even

    • Spec Tire
      2
    • New Class for "modified" cars
      5
    • Minimum weights for H1 to keep cars even
      18
    • Let regions do as they please
      3
    • Ban open head and engine mgmt in H1
      3


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I honestly think a spec tire for such a diverse field of cars is the worst thing for the series. Its not like all the drivers are using the same equipment, wheel sizes, tire sizes, etc...

 

If it were for the same car, then spec tires are a great idea - SM, SRX7, Crash Racer Ford, etc, etc...

 

One of the biggest successes for ECHC was its accessibility - SCCA and GAC cars were acceptable, and by going to a spec tire you really hurt this accessibilty. Most club racers are on a shoestring budget and cannot and will not buy another set of wheels and tires to run ECHC for a few weekends. Its a deterrent for anyone who doesnt want to run the full season, never mind the supply issues. I think toyos are a great tire, but they just arent for everyone.

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I'll go with spec tire, Toyo's work well and help keep the cost down. Not all of us want to spend the $$ for Hoosiers to be a front running car. I much rather run the hole season than run a few fast races!

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I'll go with spec tire, Toyo's work well and help keep the cost down. Not all of us want to spend the $$ for Hoosiers to be a front running car. I much rather run the hole season than run a few fast races!

 

I think you're not taking into consideration the vast differences in tire sizes - some of the H5 cars come from SCCA and use a mandated 13" wheel - toyo offers a 205/60/13, not a 225/45/13 that hoosier/kumho offer - and to be honest those cars dont burn through hoosiers like a H1/H2/H3 car will. Do you expect these guys to step up to a 14" wheel just for ECHC? Or get shafted with a non-ideal size?

 

the point is, that ECHC cars dont use the same tire size, or anywhere close to it - and if toyo offered more of the desired sizes (like 225/45/13, 225/45/15, etc) and did have supply issues, and the racers werent kept in the dark about the spec tire deal in the beginnign, this would not be an issue now. But it is, and a spec tire for such a diverse group is stupid. Whats so spec about a tire that doesnt even come from the same place? Who's saving money if racers decide to show up every weekend on fresh, shaved to 1/32nd" toyos?

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Something to think about is NASA has always welcomed other cars to participate as a "fun run" meaning they don't collect any points but run with the group where they would fit. For folks coming from other series that just want to get extra track time or check out the action they could run their tire of choice. If they are only running a few races a year then they would not have a chance to place in the championship and in So Cal/Nor Cal regions you must run 3 full weekend to even qualify for end of year finishing position.

 

If this acceptable and people are aware of it it may help bridge the gap between the serious guys dying for even playing field with cost containment and the other guys with non spec tires but otherwise legal cars that would want to come a play for a race or two. NASA tries to be racer friendly but we also try and make our competitive series very evenly matched. From what we have seen in other series, the spec tire really helped even the playing field.

 

Food for thought. Keep the ideas coming.

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then what about the guys who are stuck with non-optimal tire sizes coming from scca?

 

screw 'em? tell them to buy different wheels?

 

without a spec size, i think a spec tire is silly.

 

any update on the supply issue other than stockpile them in december?

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With respect, there are some serious methodological issues with the survey question and reply options - or maybe I'm just confused...

 

What is meant by "keeping racing even?" Equitable classification for a large number of Honda models? Rules that are easy to enforce to head off cheating? Limited modifications in an attempt to contain costs? Something else? Accepting that I might be puzzled, some thoughts:

 

** Spec tires do NOTHING to directly control budgets. If I am willing to spend the dough to burn up a new set of Hosers every weekend, putting me on Toyos will not force me to spend less money. I will just use more new Toyos or spend the money elsewhere on my program. Having run both spec- and open-tire series, I can say from experience that the only way that a spec tire deal is beneficial to the majority of entrants is when the manufacturer dramatically subsidizes the cost for everyone. A spec tire purchased at retail price - even with a contingency award program - is a slam dunk for the manufacturer, at the expense of the average entrant. I would rather be left on my own to negotiate a tire deal of my own than be put in this position.

 

** A spec tire is particularly odd in the context of a "HO" or other wide-open class. Any pretense that the move is a cost-control measure is pretty weak in a class where I can legally throw a wad of cash at a 300hp Honda engine.

 

** Creating another class does nothing to increase equity within classes. Providing that class with a very liberal set of rules (with relatively few restrictions) will likely result in greater variance within that class - not "even."

 

** The degree to which regions are empowered to make their own decisions about classes is an entirely distinct issue from those that have bubbled up recently in the HC world.

 

** Again, I might be slow but is the point about 13" wheels that I would be compelled to run on less-than-ideal 205s when I take my NASA-spec Toyos back to an SCCA IT regional? If everyone in a given H5 race is in the same boat, then things are "even." Or is the issue that those stuck on 13s will be at a disadvantage (ie. sub-optimal gearing) compared to others in H5?

 

Kirk

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Its not just the H5 cars... its the cars who dont have a 225/45/15 available to them either - this seems to be shared by many cars across the board and is not available from toyo. Going to a 225/50/15 requires you to raise the ride height .75" or so - re-aligning the car, and probably another test day to sort out shock/swaybar settings with the new tires.

 

Also, another consideration i had - there are very few toyo dealers, where as there are many hoosier/kumho dealers (anyone who is a tirerack dealer). What about local sponsorship deals that the racers have worked out? Since they have to now pay full price for tires they're getting screwed on that front as well.

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Not related to tires but, I would like some of you guys to think about the issue of engine management.

 

My position is that I already have a couple G's invested in a system, so obviously intend on keeping it. But disregard my car altogether, just think about the requirements of a typical H1 engine. Any modification to the head or bottom end ideally will be tuned in order to run at its potential safely. The reason a lot of hybrids still chip and use adjustable FPR's to tune is that they have left engine management as a last step or haven't thought it was as important as it really is.

 

So if you are going to remove free ECU's, then you may as well say that the engine swap must be done with a completely stock engine as well.

 

Maybe that is what you are saying anyway, and I just didn't get it. No free ECU and no free head?

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you dont need expensive engine management systems. cut the cost by cutting those out - no need for motec, greddy, aem EMS, electromotive, etc, etc....

 

there's no reason that a mildly modified honda motor (they really arent that far from stock, even pushing 220whp) cant be maximised with a piggyback (apex power fc, etc) or hondata.

 

chipped/piggyback systems ought to be allowed, and thats it. It just has no place in a grassroots series.

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Ryan, I am assuming you are meaning H1. As it stands the EC offers a very competive field throughout the classes.

 

For overall HC I would like to see:

A Modified 13/13 rule.

Reason. I don't want some guy to use me as a bumper.

Reality. It is racing, there will be contact period, this i understand. But with the rule comes the mindset that i better make sure i'm safe while doing this pass and not bumping the side of my competitors car just to get through the corner.

It also seems that most of the rules in question are for h1 so that seems like the rest of the field is fine with what is there. Basically racing a stockcar with minor bolt ons.

 

for h1

 

H1 minumum weights.

I believe you said something like 2175.

I like this cause i choose to run an EG where as an equally prepared CRX or 88-91 civic can easily come in 300 lbs lighter than me. Although James Evans (crx) and I are almost equal in weight.

This will also give those in an integra or those who can find a cheap integra chasis a good alternative. Currently there are no h1 integras on the east coast.

 

Spec Tire

As long as there is a great supply and we can get these at less than 169 plus shipping, and new sizes are manufactored very good. ps. i want 225/45/15's if you have any say in what sizes be produced.

 

LET REGIONS DO AS THEY PLEASE.

IMO Don't do this!!! PERIOD! But please let the regions have input on what is going to happen because what is good for the goose is not good for the gander.

I don't know the internal structure of NASA or how series rules are set but there needs to be much discussion on the rules.

yes there will be trial and error time with the rules. you can only try to forsee everything but in reality that does not happen.

 

Ban Open Head and Engine management.

Hmmmmm.....I like the idea of open heads for h1 allowing different cam configuration.

Cost on a b series head

Port and Polish 600 bones or do it yourself....

cams 1000

cam gears 300

valve springs and retainers 500

Now keep in mind that most guys who have a SWAP in their car already have this done or will do it in the future thus if you change to stock head spec cams this will actually cost more for the racer. That being said this is based on NASA HPDE's feeding the NASA Racing Programs. With guys/girls who have a swap most have cams and minor head work. Also most have some sort of engine management. I don't know what the motec management unit is but i'm pretty sure it isn't going to give me that much more over my current ECU/engine management which is a Apexi Power FC (800 bought used).

Keep bottomend stock. Maybe add block gridles or the main caps and can upgrade bolts to increase strength and less chance of an engine braking loose on track. Thus less track time. Extreme amounts of money can be spent on a lightened crank rods an pistons, sleeved block, DART BLOCK (oh these are so nice and would love to run an 87 mm pistons in a B series block) decked block kryro treated. Most of the power is made in the HEAD although 15-25 hps would be picked up with a super high compression piston but the same results can be recieved by milling the head and using a stock piston. Now the rules say nothing about modifing parts in a block....ie adding material to a piston to increase CR or taking away material to lighten it. It say stock parts must be used in the bottomend.

 

New Class for MODIFIEDS....

this meaning engine would be free and suspension would be free.

That is up to yall-NASA. I'd like to try and build a 260-320 NA honda engine but i'm sure that it will not be reliable. heck i'd love to see a honda hit 160 down the front straight at vir or lowes...that would be just plain sweet!!

 

 

 

I would like to see that canards and other aero work would be allowed. We made some blinging canards but found they decreased top speed (due to angle on them) and took them off. If we were to experiment with them i'm sure we would find them extremely benificial!

 

Carbon fiber/fiberglass....hey if there is a minumum weight then heck allow it. But without a minumum weight i would say no for the following reasons

someone said CF and Fiberglass do not crumple, this never occured to be but makes sense and could be dangerous if it were to push through windshield. there must be a reason why nascar doesn't use it, buth then again F1 and indy cars do. go figure

Cost=this is an entry level race program

Weight-you can save 10=30 pounds with CF hood over stock (BUT I know we can get a stock hood to less than the weight of most aftermarket CF hoods, but have been told this is ILLEGAL Because it has not remained stock) but from exterior which rules say it does look stock so go figure.

Kiwi or SBE on HT mentioned that in a wreck those pieces just break away....yeah if you are in a wreck that would be benifial to you but then again a 13/13 rule would maybe make someone think twice about that super close/dive in on someone. I AM NOT SAYING THAT IS WHY THOSE PIECES BROKE!!!! I'm not saying that they dove in or anything not calling you out, or saying you divein or anything like that by no means!

this puts debris on the track, yes we are racers and should know how to deal with debris.

 

 

these are my ramblings....hopefully the big guys are taking everyones opinion and putting it to the benefit of the whole.

 

 

ps....If it weren't for the comradery i have on the east coast i'm sure i'd be in arizona and finding a tow vehicle and someone to pay for toyos so i could race in the westcoast hc!!!!

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I use the AEM EMS with a wideband. This is a $2000 system. I can tune this very quickly without renting a dyno, every time I do a modification. The widebands are falling in price as we speak, so today one would only need to spend $1600 on a complete AEM EMS with wideband (btw, lookout Motec).

 

A typical piggyback can be what $300-$400? Plus tuning, $150 each time you want to get on a dyno?

 

still, I already have the system, so in reality what is best for me may not be the best for the series, but I for one will not be unbuilding my car.

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At first, I thought spec tires would be a great idea. After having seen it in a few classes first hand though, it just isn't working.

 

Let's examine the pluses of a spec tire:

 

a) "Even" the grip playing field a little bit more.

b) Offer bigger contingencies since we're REQUIRED to buy a bunch of the same tire.

c) Offer trackside support, again since we're all supporting "X" tire brand.

 

Minuses?

a) Availablity. Toyos are GONE. No more after the first 2 opening months of the season. Same thing has happened to Kumho towards the end of SRX7 seasons.

b) Size limits. Not all tire manufacturers have proper sizing for the range of cars found in HC.

c) If you choose something like a Hoosier, you are forcing people to buy expensive, short lived tires. If you choose a Toyo, you're forcing people to buy a tire which has had a history of running out of supply. Kumhos? Both their compounds come in limited sizes, though between the two compounds, most popular ones are covered. Dunno about for ITA CRX's that wanna run though. Don't say they can just buy different sized wheels. That is unrealistic and foolish to request from a club racing standpoint.

 

Warren

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Please share your input with the poll

 

It will be active for 5 days

 

Is this poll for H1 only? Because H2-H5 are relatively competetive as it stands. Many of the choices for the poll do not apply to H2-H5, in fact, only 1 does.

 

Warren

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Why don't you simply break it down into three classes:

 

1) Stock

2) Modifed w/hp:wt ratio limits

3) Unlimited

 

And let everything else be determined by those three factors -

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I use the AEM EMS with a wideband. This is a $2000 system. I can tune this very quickly without renting a dyno, every time I do a modification. The widebands are falling in price as we speak, so today one would only need to spend $1600 on a complete AEM EMS with wideband (btw, lookout Motec).

 

I dont think a $2000 engine management system fits into the intent.... a $300 hondata + $150 of dyno time and then forget it is more reasonable.

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Maybe your right RJ, it is pricey. But I really don't believe that the typical H1 Hybrid build would be competitive with a H1 prepped S2000 or NSX without the free ECU and Head.

 

So, if the direction is to limit the ECU and Head, then I would also think it would be a good idea to remove the S2000 and NSX as eligible.

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Guess I'll copy this post here too... and add to it a bit.

 

 

minimum weight for H1 - A good rule that will solve the argument over carbon fiber, etc, will help to equalize the fields, and will allow multiple chassis to be competitive. I don't see a downside (unless you built a CRX expecting to have a weight advantage).

 

engine specs and classing - I have two lines of thought on this - in both of them, the maximum engine prep allowed in the premier class will not be increased. No built bottomends, nor anything else to further increase power levels beyond current standards.

1) Leave H1 specs as-is with the addition of the minimum weight rule and the allowance of any kind of *bling* you want to add...

2) Leave H1 specs as-is with the addition of the minimum weight rule and the allowance of any king of *bling* you want to add and rename the class the HU/HX. AND, create a new H1 class that consists of any honda chassis running any OEM honda parts. Same minimum weight as HU/HX. Restrictions: no head porting, the ENTIRE engine must consist of OEM honda parts (except rings, per current ruleset), brakes must be OEM honda parts, engine control limited to rechipped OEM ECU's.

 

This gives you a premier "show" class for the WC people and the current EC people without sending budgets through the roof. At the same time, it gives you an "entry level hybrid" class. Throwing out open head and open brakes knocks $5000+ off the potential pricetag of the car. I vote to keep standalong ECU's in the open head class to help maintain reliability of these more volatile engines, and disallow it with the stock parts engines because the additional features aren't compulsory to maintain reliability, and class costs can be further reduced.

 

-----------------------------

 

spec tire - isn't doing much to equalize these non-spec classes. Sure, all the integra's are on the same tire, but what about the prelude's in the same class with them? I understand the benefit of NASA making deals like this. Unfortunately, it's with a company without the correct sizes for this series, and who seems to have supply line problems. There are a lot of people who are fine with running Toyo's... people who will be running them even if it weren't a spec tire. Deleting this rule will bring a new group around complaining that some people are bringing out a new set of Hoosiers every weekend and buying an advantage. The biggest problem I see is supply. If that could get fixed I would personally be ok - if it can't get fixed, then it's a serious, serious problem and Toyo should be cut loose.

 

engine management - As I stated above, I want to see engine mgmt stay open for any class running an open head. The ability to tune easily at the track is something that's going to save these people money in the long run.

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My 2 cents,

 

First I think all three regions should adopt the same set of rules so that we can have a Nationals event at the end of the season. I think this would be great for out sponsors and some potential TV stations might want to pick that race up.

 

Second, if limitations aren't set on the engine management systems then people on limited budgets will suffer. I'm holding off getting any ems because I'm waiting to see what the rules say for next year. If they are allowed for next year, then I will be buying BAR's EMS system for 15k. I would like to see EMS;s banned. Chipping the ecu and tunning should take the place of EMS's.

 

Overall I think the tire issue is the one to be concerned about. Toyo's aren't in stock. I would like to just see a support deal where Toyo can make a promise to have tires just available to us. Look at what happened at Beaver Run. The majoirty of people went with Hoosiers.

 

-Larry

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I dont think a $2000 engine management system fits into the intent.... a $300 hondata + $150 of dyno time and then forget it is more reasonable.

 

My two cents is that anything that is re-programmable at the track falls under EMS. That includes Hondata. Chipped ECU is chipped ECU and anything else is EMS.

 

The idea that I could legally build a $15000 engine, then be forced to run it off someone's chipped ECU is rediculous. If we were talking about a "beginner hybrid" class where the entire engine must consist of OEM parts, then I would agree... a chipped ECU is sufficient. -- and please don't tell me that I shouldn't be spending that on an engine... I'm not, but the rules do allow it.

 

I've seen your proposed H1 ruleset and all it will manage to do is make every current H1 (EC & WC) illegal in one fell swoop. If you want a budget hybrid class, then create one to be placed underneath the current one.

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Kenistis-

 

You have done a lot of research and your opinions have solid ground therefore I understand why you maintain your position. Personally I disagree. Here are some reasons why:

 

1) A "Toyo" spec tire does control costs. Sure you can choose to spend money in other areas (Trailer with lift so when something breaks you can easily repair it and be back racing, etc.) that can result in a benefit. However you are not forced to spend the money to be competitive. If the prep rules are fairly tight (H2-H5) then everyone is on even ground and you don't HAVE to go buy fresh tires all the time, thus you DO save money. Can you spend it elsewhere and gain benefit? Sure but it is not directly tangible benefit.

 

2) Spec Tires don't belong in the faster more expensive class- Really? I spent 7K on Hoosiers when American Iron had an open tire and won the championship 1st year. I spent 3K when they went to Toyos, as did all the other top teams and was just as competitive. You think I liked that savings? Absolutely. I know exactly how many tires every other racer used because of our contingency program and the winner used 2 more tires than the 3 place guy and the 2nd place guy used less than both the 1st and 3rd place finisher. All, I know is I have lived and spent the money. If you want to disagree I am cool with it but I just have data that proves my point. Lets not forget all the Pro ladder series have a spec tire and tire limits (Fran Am, ASC, Formula Mazda, Barber Dodge) which is designed to save money on testing and usage.

 

3) Agreed on your thoughts on yet another class. I don't think to does anything but add more issues to deal with.

 

4) 13" wheel people- How many H5 cars are there really? Is the critical mass there to warrant making the tire decision for the entire series? Car count is what matters here. Also, a H5 car can get a cheap junkyard 14" stock Honda rims for next to nothing and buy a set of Toyos which will make the car fast and cost even less than fresh Hoosiers for every race. Now I realize they don't HAVE to buy fresh tires but NOBODY will argue that the Hoosier has a lap time advantage in the first 2 heat cycles so if you have the money and can buy the advantage you will. If they are SCCA people and just want to come have fun, keep the tire they have and if not a Toyo just run a "fun run" and don't get points. They wont be in contention for end of year if they run 1 or 2 events so what does it really matter. The serious H5 competitor will have committed to NASA and gone to the 14" anyway!!!!!!

 

I wont have time to go point counterpoint on this so at least you know what my thoughts are and I understand yours as well. Hope they make some sense to with my explanations.

 

Ryan

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Just another suggestion for discussion from out of left field, by a non-H1 guy. How about a lb/hp ratio for H1, like AI and AIX use? Would this be workable?

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Chad- You comments really help and I must say it seems like we are pretty much in agreement with where the series should go. The NASA rule book is "No Contact" and much more strict than 13/13. Not sure what modified 13/13 is but agreed that this is racing and contact will happen in a competitive series. We are not racing vintage cars after all. However the NASA rules are very strict. I had incidental contact last race and got a race suspension. No 50/50 damage to either car but it caused the other car to deviate so I got nailed. With 13/13 I would just be on probation. Cool lets race and I be a good boy. Now I can't race at the next event and lose the 100 points. OUCH!

 

Other Stuff

I spoke with Toyo and they have a large shipment arriving 6/25/03. There should be adequate supply from there forward. In the mean time there is other stock available and I will make some calls next week and give you guys some locations and stock numbers for some tires that can be purchased now.

 

Engine ECU

Personally I think stock computers (not even chip) should be in H2-H5 but the IT crossover guys freak so it is easier to let them have the chip. However the Zdyne box can prove a significant advantage if you know what you are doing and have a Dyno. That is a $800.00 unit and at least a day of Dyno time. In a little CRX, I think totally unnecessary but I am getting ready to do this because the rule allows it, others have it and I need the advantage as well. Does it make more sense just to disallow it and keep it cheap and easy? I think so. How bout you guys?? Stock ECU in H2-H5 or leave it alone???

 

H1- I don't see the need for anything beyond the stock ECU computer modifications (Hondata, Zdyne, Chips, piggybacks, etc). These are all under $1000 and don't give the huge controls that a Motec, BAR, AEM, Electromotive, etc and don't cost ton and require extensive Dyno testing and available expertise. Therefore, (personally) I think it should be removed but we want to hear from the "people" and that is what will decide in the end. Send your email votes to me please.

 

 

Head

Seems most people say that "something" has been done to the head and many HPDE people do that kind of stuff before racing so it makes sense to allow if that is the "norm". That's cool, just wanted to get the general sense if people want to spend $2000-5000 to have the competitive edge or just apply the H2-H5 head prep rules with shaving and port matching. At this point since the Cams have been open and MOST have done that as the first step it makes sense to allow any cam combo. However if the head is relatively stock then most aftermarket grinds will perform the best. Open head = custom grinds and big gains that the majority wont be able to do?????

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One quick way to limit the costs is to put a 'claim rule' on engines/drivetrain/ecu's - if you make it so anyone can claim parts of your car based on a set value - you can level the playing field

 

for example:

$1500 - engine claim

$1000 - ecu claim

 

anyone can buy anyone else's engine for $1500. cash on the spot. keeps people from spending $10,000. on an engine when they have to sell it to their competitor for $1500.

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1) A "Toyo" spec tire does control costs. Sure you can choose to spend money in other areas (Trailer with lift so when something breaks you can easily repair it and be back racing, etc.) that can result in a benefit. However you are not forced to spend the money to be competitive. If the prep rules are fairly tight (H2-H5) then everyone is on even ground and you don't HAVE to go buy fresh tires all the time, thus you DO save money. Can you spend it elsewhere and gain benefit? Sure but it is not directly tangible benefit.

 

You're missing the fact that Toyo does not make the 'ideal' size that most of these guys would like to run.

 

If they want to spend money on hoosiers then let them - if not it will likely go somewhere else. I think scott used 10 tires last year (hoosiers), and thats not too bad. If he were on toyos maybe he would have bought 8.

 

Even with a new shipment coming in, most of the 205/50/15 tires are spoken for by the SM crowd. Spec tires in a non-spec class is stupid, IMO. Theres too much diversity everywhere - its up to the racers to set their own budgets, you dont need to save money for them. The spec tire deal seems more like a self-serving measure for NASA (sponsor $$$) that up until now is only going to hurt the racers.

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