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bmw22

Petition for other Euro cars in GTS

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bmw22

Before I write this reply, just remember that I'm looking at this from both sides of the issue and as the administrator of the series.

 

Carl referred to adding other makes as "dilution" Yes, he is right, it would be diluting GTS as we know it. But there is another form of dilution to look at. What if someone starts the ERS (European Race Series) in NASA. Chances are, it would be a 13/13 series similar to GTS. Therefore, it would most likely be on track with GTS. Now we have 5 more classes of cars running times similar to GTS times. We just multiplied the instances on "out of class racing" Also, the "ERS" would be open to German cars....we are already loosing existing and potential drivers to the 19 classes (slight exaggeration) for 944 and E30 cars. In this new ERS, they would be open to any car from europe, without limitation. Have you ever seen an SCCA Prod F,G or H race where the track doesn't get oiled down by some over bored british car?

 

As far as the difference between a 2000 Lotus with a 11 to 1 p/w ratio vs a 3000 BMW with the same p/w ratio....... we can always adjust the rules.

 

In the end, it's going to come down to more makes in GTS or more classes on track in our run group.

 

This fall, we are going to decided this one way or the other. Your opinions and suggests count, so keep them coming.

 

As a GTS racer, I lean towards not making any changes.

 

As the National coordinator, I am split right down the middle on this, I see the pros and cons of both sides.

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FlyingDog

Since the chief concern seems to be British cars, what about a Continental Touring Series? Add Swedes, French (they'd just surrender anyway), and Italians. Maybe somebody will haul out a Spyker for the Danish.

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CARVAL Motorsports

[quote name='"bmw22"

In the end' date=' it's going to come down to more makes in GTS or more classes on track in our run group.[/color'] quote]

 

Man Mark, it sounds chillingly like you know what is coming.

I was listening to excerpts from the National Championship Audio just the other eve and come to the same conclusion each time I listen to it... way to many classes in one race makes it too confusing for the announcers, and I'm sure, the race fans. I would surely hate to see another 13/13 Series created and then attached to GTS. Maybe we can close our eyes and hope that if they come they will be given to Dave Derecola and Chris Cobetto's gangs. But this subject is a good one. Interesting to see the input

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ryan325

As far as the difference between a 2000 Lotus with a 11 to 1 p/w ratio vs a 3000 BMW with the same p/w ratio....... we can always adjust the rules.

 

Sounds challenging. I would guess someone would always feel slighted.

 

I like the appeal of an all Geman series. Most of the GTS cars seem somewhat well matched/similar, start adding all Euro cars and it would lose something. But if your on track w/ them anyway - ?????. Tough call.

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bmw22
Man Mark, it sounds chillingly like you know what is coming.

 

"I know nothing" spoken in my best Sgt Schultz accent.

 

It's more of a calculated assumption based on facts and conversations as far back as 2006. It started with NASA's first talking about too many classes, followed by the deletion of GTSU.(at NASA's request). Talk of many TT drivers not wanting to make the jump to racing because of certain out of control series(too much contact) And now an ever increasing number of folks wanting to race their euro cars under a 13/13 rule.

 

In the GL and MW regions, I would be surprised to see more than 5-8 euro cars at any event. But other regions would be different. I know there is a pretty large Ferrari contingent in the DC area and the SE & FL regions would see a good number of Lotus.

 

Maybe a pilot region or two would be the way to go. Who knows, it may be just the ticket to jump start GTS out west.

 

It would be nice to have some demographics on numbers of euro cars accross the country. If anyone has a suggestion on how to collect that type of data, please speak up!

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gpeluso

Mark,

Watching the National video makes me think. The races between the GTS3 cars was great but so was the race in GTS2 and I would have imagined GTS1.... little to no coverage and if Stickley would not have broken would the announcer even really talked that much about GTS3??? I feel we have to many classes. Do amatuer racers really need to go faster than a GTS3 car can go????? I think a wieght to power ratio somewhere between GTS2 and GTS3 for the whole class would be very interesting. Last year why round up GTS5 cars to come when they really have no business on the track with GTS1 cars and do you really want a pack of GTS5 cars racing at that kind of speed coming up on much slower GTS1 cars? We have been luck that there has not been 5 Stickley's out there. I know my thinking may not be very popular but I would like to see the best GTS1,GTS2,GTS3 drivers battle each other in a touring car series. I am just very concerned about the safety of drivers and the limits of their equipment.

 

Greg Peluso

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FlyingDog

Greg, I planned to race in 944 Supercup until they instituted the 14.5lb/hp limit. My car would have to weigh over 4000lb with stock HP to make the cutoff for Supercup. Even at 11.5:1 for GTS3 I would be around 3200lbs. If GTS4 and 5 were cut off, I would have no class to race in NASA and would be off to SCCA (ITE) and PCA (GT2S). A 928 is not the only German car in this situation. Just because you drive a car built with low horsepower doesn't mean that others "have no business on the track".

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gpeluso

Matt,

You are not getting what I'm saying.... have you run with a car as fast as Stickley's??? He is a very good driver and aggressive..... would you want 5 in apack coming up on a pack of GTS1 cars. I am stating the two classes if have no business being on the track of the same time.... Sorry, Matt just my opinion. Car that go that fast may need a roll cage similiar to World Challenge specs not just a 6 point cage.

 

Sorry,

 

Greg

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RSCoupe

I think that going the route of SE and MA regions might be a solution to the speed differential problem, at least for GL and MW regions. Put GTS1 and 2 with the spec 944's and Miata's, and have 3,4 and 5 run with the fast group (AIX, AI, CMC, etc.). As has been mentioned, some of the GTS3 cars are faster than the GTS4 cars.

I would have to change too much to my car to make is fit into GTS3, and I love it the way it is; wicked fast.

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scottbm3

It's kind of tough to accomplish a GTS stand alone run group if you break up GTS and run in different race groups. I think we should all run in the same group. The difference in speed happens in most groups that run multiple classes. Faster cars need to realize when they are coming up on a slower group that is "In-Class" racing and try not to mess up their race. What would you do at Nationals?? You're not going to get two seperate GTS championship races.... Just my opinion..

 

 

Scott

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RSCoupe

I agree Scott, and I have no problem running with the slower classes; as you said, it's bound to happen in whatever group we're put in; it just seemed there was some concern about the really fast cars possibly running over the slower ones. If everybody pays attention, and don't take unnecessary risks, it shouldn't be a problem.

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CARVAL Motorsports

Some of the best racing I can remember was the two or three occasions that the growing GTS field was tossed in with the AI and CMC group at Beaverun. Highly congested track, but everyone did what they were supposed to. We were given many accolades by the AI group.

I have always enjoyed the special challenge of sharing the track with the many speed groups that we have with GTS. I agree 100% with Scott's opinion. I would be highly dissapointed if my class and GTS1 were EVER attached to Spec e30 and 944Cup (More proper, they being attached to GTS1 & 2). I have invested way to much time and dollars to take that HUGE step backwards, even if it meant GTS2 would probably be pacing the field. The sharp end of GTS2 will be running .38's or better this year, and I do not see Cup getting much past it's .42 because of its regulations. That is the same 4.0+ second gap that currently separates GTS2 from GTS3 & 4. My gut feeling, split up GTS classes like that and you will not see GTS around in a few years. I personally am not happy to hear that our southern and eastern friends are allowing this to continue. Bad for GTS, sorry.

I have a better suggestion. Let's turn this post around into developing the absolute best, killer, can't say no, offer ya can't refuse, irrefutable marketing pitch to use on all your friends and mates that still do not have it "happining" with NASA and GTS. Stay focussed on the real target... building our fields. I am probably going to give up our Putnam May race to do a PCA event again, primarily to rekindle some friendships but also to make some sales calls! My car won't fit well in any PCA class anymore, but I am going to bring a lot of spirit!

Sorry Greg, your opinion matters to me for sure, but on this occasion, I just don't agree. One thing I would consider... if we continue to struggle with GTS5 entries, we may have to suspend that class until we have a need. But really, having a car like Stickley's in our field adds more to the "Gloss" and intensity of GTS, and really promotes the initial cornerstone, build it, bring it, we'll class it.

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bmw22

In the MA and SE regions, the fields are quite different from the GL and MW GTS field. MA only has a couple GTS1 and 2 cars and and several GTS4 and 5 with GTS 3 being the largest field. It makes sense in MA.

 

In the GL region, would GTS1 and 2 really prefer running with Spec Pinata and Hondas?

 

The goal of GTS is to have our own run group in all regions. We won't be taking steps backwards from that goal.

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jakermc

I don't see any issue with speed differentials between GTS classes. Thats a part of racing and learning to deal with lapped traffic or lapping traffic is part of the skill base I would expect us to develop.

 

I find mixing with the CMC or AI crowd much less fun. We do this in our practice sessions but we have different Quali and Race groups. For one, they have a tendency to bang more, at least in our region. Secondly they seem to handle very differently than our cars in GTS and drive very unusual lines, at least from my perspective. They also have much longer braking zones, adding to the confusion. As a result they appear to be unpredictable to me and a little dangerous. Of course this is something I would learn over time but I'd rather not have to deal with entering a corner with 1 AI car, 1 GTS car, and myself in my Porsche as we try and sort out who wants to be where.

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gpeluso

Guys,

I am used to driving in large fields with different speeds.......I was just concerned but I seem to be alone.......... I wish everyone good luck this year and to be safe.

 

Sorry,

 

Greg Peluso

GTS2 and SpecMiata

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Fred Crawford
Some of the best racing I can remember was the two or three occasions that the growing GTS field was tossed in with the AI and CMC group at Beaverun. Highly congested track, but everyone did what they were supposed to. We were given many accolades by the AI group.

I have always enjoyed the special challenge of sharing the track with the many speed groups that we have with GTS. I agree 100% with Scott's opinion. I would be highly dissapointed if my class and GTS1 were EVER attached to Spec e30 and 944Cup (More proper, they being attached to GTS1 & 2). I have invested way to much time and dollars to take that HUGE step backwards, even if it meant GTS2 would probably be pacing the field. The sharp end of GTS2 will be running .38's or better this year, and I do not see Cup getting much past it's .42 because of its regulations. That is the same 4.0+ second gap that currently separates GTS2 from GTS3 & 4. My gut feeling, split up GTS classes like that and you will not see GTS around in a few years. I personally am not happy to hear that our southern and eastern friends are allowing this to continue. Bad for GTS, sorry.

I have a better suggestion. Let's turn this post around into developing the absolute best, killer, can't say no, offer ya can't refuse, irrefutable marketing pitch to use on all your friends and mates that still do not have it "happining" with NASA and GTS. Stay focussed on the real target... building our fields. I am probably going to give up our Putnam May race to do a PCA event again, primarily to rekindle some friendships but also to make some sales calls! My car won't fit well in any PCA class anymore, but I am going to bring a lot of spirit!

Sorry Greg, your opinion matters to me for sure, but on this occasion, I just don't agree. One thing I would consider... if we continue to struggle with GTS5 entries, we may have to suspend that class until we have a need. But really, having a car like Stickley's in our field adds more to the "Gloss" and intensity of GTS, and really promotes the initial cornerstone, build it, bring it, we'll class it.

 

Carl,

Im with ya all the way,

from the South...

Fc

GTS5

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