schwank Posted March 12, 2008 Posted March 12, 2008 Took forever to get the car in the shop and get the thing completed, but finally I have a sub-skeleton installed in my car. I've got two weeks before my shakedown outing, and three days after that is comp school. Lots to do including reassembling my interior, paint and pad the cage, rear torsion bars, battery cutoff, graphics, alignment, and I'll probably throw in some fresh fluids while I'm in there. Anyway, I figure I'd post pics of the cage since it is always fun to see different designs and critque them. On mine the rear X goes a bit farther back than is commonly accepted. But check out how he got me the SCCA required dash bar in my late car, while still maintaining defrost for the PacNW mornings. Also the halo bar is pretty nice up front to get me enough headroom. The driver's seat is on Sparco sliders welded to a metal frame, which is bolted and welded to the floor, and includes a correct rear 6 point mount. Passenger is permanently fixed in place, bolted to a similar steel subframe. The bends are pretty tight to the frame too, so I have plenty of room. Lots of things to do but I am SOOOO fired up. No turning back now! I'll post some more of the million pictures I have when it is all re-assembled. http://www.schwanks.com/944/Part12/default.htm Quote
944 boy Posted March 12, 2008 Posted March 12, 2008 Very nice! I am currently getting a cage put in and those are identical rear braces. Quote
genikz Posted March 13, 2008 Posted March 13, 2008 Eric, thanks for posting man. I never get tired of roll cage pictures! Quote
vwmann1 Posted March 14, 2008 Posted March 14, 2008 OK, I have talked to Eric already so I guess he will not have a problem with me posting this: I want everybody to take a look at the pics below. These are examples of what you DO NOT want your cage to look like. Look at the left foot area, the down tube is barely on the plate and the tube coming down from the door bar is not welded all the way around. The right foot is the same thing, barely on the plate and and not secure. This can be fixed so Eric is not up a creek. Most of the other welds on the cage are very good so I'm not trying to throw this builder under the bus, but a cage is only as strong as the weakest point and this cage would not pass tech as it stands now. If you are having a cage built be proactive and look at the work that is being done before you see the finished product. Ask for pics if you can't look at it in person. See how the copes are before the cage is welded. Big gaps can be made up with a welder. Be informed! This cage will be your first line of defense in an accident. Quote
944-Spec#94 Posted March 14, 2008 Posted March 14, 2008 The other thing to note is that 944 spec rules only allow 1 foot bar per side. This means that the bar running parallel to the frame rail is not legal for 944 spec. The reason we allow only 1 bar here is to put some limits on chassis stiffening. Granted that one bar is not going to do alot, but you have to put limits someplace otherwise you will get guys tring to bend them. On the note for safety that bar does not do that much anway since it is parallel to one of the strongests parts of the car anyway. The upper bar is the one you want. BTW... it seems like cage guy got sloppy and put the plate a few inches too far forward. Then when the front hoop tube came down it just barely made on the plate. Quote
schwank Posted March 14, 2008 Author Posted March 14, 2008 (edited) No problem with posting this at all. I posted the pics because they always stimulate discussion. I am in contact with the local scrutineer to have him come check out the cage and provide his opinions before I go back to the builder. Understanding his position, I wouldn't want a customer coming back and saying 'someone on the internet said you need to fix this.' The builder is well known locally and comes recommended by the local SCCA heads, and Greg Fordahl too. I was assured by many that I was in good hands. As a bit of background, the car will be SCCA sanctioned, not NASA. It has to pass SCCA tech for a logbook to race here. He is not a specialist in 944's like Doug though Anyway, as Doug said, this is a case of a tow truck dropping off the car at my house when it was 'done', I did not go pick it up or do a final review after it was complete. Overall the cage is great and has a lot of little things that were done very nicely for my benefit. But there are a few small issues that I definitely would like to have dealt with. After checking it over last night, there are also two welds I could find that are not 360. As an aside, I have to say the amateur racing arena is a freakin circus. I swear it is the most unorganized thing I have ever seen. You have multiple conferences that can't get along and behind the scenes everyone badmouths everyone else. No one can agree on any common set of rules as many of them are based on judgement calls, especially in the safety realm. No one really wants to take responsibility for the safety stuff either. There was 100% turnover in the technical scrutineering staff here this year I have been told. It makes this whole process a royal pain in the ass if you try to build a car that can travel. For example, when I look at my cage compared to Joe's... I can't imagine riding in Joe's car. That thing looks so flimsy. Even with bad welds I know I would rather be in my car. But his would pass tech and mine wouldn't. Maybe. In some regions. Not a shot at his cage at all mind you. He is already racing... I'm just spouting off from the grandstands. I am still not sure if I will even be able to race this year. I have spent THOUSANDS of dollars on stuff lately, and burned countless hours of my time and others. I do all the work on the car save for this roll cage. I have already missed my intended shakedown, which is going on as we speak while I sit here at work. I have 10 days til the car has to be complete and on track for a shakedown. Comp school is in 13 days. There is one SCCA school here per year. If I miss that, I honestly might say fugget and drive DE the whole year. I don't have a tow vehicle or trailer right now and the next closest school is about a 4 hour tow. I've got a million other problems without having to stress about jumping through all these insane hoops. Some of it has to do with the local sanctioning groups... everything is way too off the cuff for my taste. But it speaks to the larger issue of incompatibility. The tough part is that I now have to delay reassembling the car or even painting and padding the cage. I have to do torsion bars though, so at least I have something to focus on outside the car for this weekend while I figure this out. I do want to say thanks to Doug for contacting me though. He was very kind to take a few moments out of his work day to talk to someone he had never met about potential issues. You guys are great people in general and I really want to get out there on the track and get some racing in. It would make this whole process seem so much more worthwhile. Don't worry, I'm not stopping this train. It just might need more beers along the way. Edited March 18, 2008 by Guest Quote
vwmann1 Posted March 14, 2008 Posted March 14, 2008 Eric Don't worry, infighting and disorganization is not exclusive to the amateur ranks. You should see things at the pro level. Bigger toys just mean bigger battles. Quote
schwank Posted March 14, 2008 Author Posted March 14, 2008 Was just re-reading this and thought of one further point. To me it is ironic that I could fail for that second front bar that joe mentioned, which parallels the frame rail to the firewall from the A pillar for 18" or so, but I am allowed to have the full x-brace on the rear support beams and any roof halo bracing I want as well. I know which does more to add rigidity to the car. Again, I know the rules are the rules and the line has to be drawn somewhere, but this is one of those areas that to me defies logic. I am actually now looking forward to my conversation with the local scrutineers... I have some pretty pointed questions for them. Quote
944-Spec#94 Posted March 14, 2008 Posted March 14, 2008 To me it is ironic that I could fail for that second front bar that joe mentioned, which parallels the frame rail to the firewall from the A pillar for 18" or so, .... Again, I know the rules are the rules and the line has to be drawn somewhere, but this is one of those areas that to me defies logic. Eric, you would never fail race tech for the two foot bars. You would just not be 944 spec legal. Since you plan on running cup it does not make much difference, but I think the point needs to be made clear for 944 spec builders. You can do a search here for foot bars and find all the discussions related to why the rule is written the way it is. Quote
schwank Posted March 14, 2008 Author Posted March 14, 2008 It's all good Joe. I know I always come off as confrontational... but I'm an engineer. I can't help it! I like to say I'm not negative... I'm critical. Looks like the SoCal races at least seem to have both groups on the same weekend anyway. Quote
schwank Posted March 16, 2008 Author Posted March 16, 2008 OK after an entire freaking day of work I finally have the torsion bar assembly on the ground. Followed Joe's procedure on spec944.org augmented with extra detail from clark's garage. Joe's procedure looks easy, until step 9 took me like 5 or 6 hours! This job is every bit as sucky as I imagined. Luckily my car has been in Oregon its' whole life and the bolts all come out relatively easy with air tools. But just getting the torsion tube carrier out once I had all the bolts removed was a serious pain. At least I got to remove another pound and a half of dirt from the undercarriage, and also used the opportunity to remove the parking brake. Hadn't planned on it, but the cable was keeping me from removing the assembly so I said what the hell and deleted all the parking brake shoes and cables too. Today I have to get the bushings all done In addition to hopefully getting the bars swapped out. I have a 5 o'clock appointment so I doubt this behemoth will make it back in the car today, which is what I was hoping to have happen. Are you guys using any replacement parts for the upper banana arm mount? It is rubber and after 20+ years I can only imagine it should be replaced with all the others. I am going to Welts and delrin as per the spec kit from paragon, but it does not include that uppper banana arm mount. I had some serious rake before - over 2" even after I boosted the front for towing to the cage shop. So weird trying to drop your car 3"! I had better get this right on the first try cause no way in hell do I want to pull this thing out again, especially with brand new bushings making it fit even tighter! As long as it is over 5" ride height, and less than 6.5", I will likely leave it, bottom out the eccentric, and then match the ride heights with the ARHK up front. Quote
944 cup Posted March 16, 2008 Posted March 16, 2008 FAST/EASY WAY TO CHANGE TORSION BARS!!! Description Introducing the TORSION PROTRACTOR: The fastest, easiest way to remove, index, and replace 944/968 torsion bars in less than 2 hours. Remove half as many parts as with comparable techniques. Don't even remove brake lines! Comes with detailed illustrated instructions with calculations and equations for most torsion bar sizes. Email me for detailed product information. Seller Information Contact: JoeboysRacingProduct 605 Kanuga Rd. Hendersonville, NC 28739 Telephone: 828-243-9533 E-mail: [email protected] Quote
schwank Posted March 16, 2008 Author Posted March 16, 2008 LOL... thanks Dave... but all my bushings are shot too. So it all comes apart. I have the pieces apart now... just have to start hacking on the bushings. Quote
schwank Posted March 17, 2008 Author Posted March 17, 2008 Well, I can now say for sure that torsion bars are the least fun job on this entire car. I would WAY rather work on the motor than do this. Started yesterday with the entire assembly on the ground. Got all the pieces apart easy enough. Gave everything a thorough cleaning with a stiff brush and some degreaser.... getting rid of 20 years of dirt and grime makes it so much easier to work on. I then spent the next 4 hours hacking away at the bushings, mainly on the spring plates. I tried Greg's method of the hot bent scraper.... It would barely penetrate the bushing. So I hacked away with utility knives of various kinds, a propane torch, and a drill with a wire wheel. I got one spring plate reasonably clean, and the other I still have probably 2 hours of work to do. I got the trailing arm bushings out too. Tried to get the hard rubber bushings out of the torsion tube end plate, but they won't budge... are you guys drilling them out or what? Then I get to deal with the pressing the new ones on. I would bet this ends up being 40 hours of work by the time the assembly is back in the car.... Quote
schwank Posted March 20, 2008 Author Posted March 20, 2008 Finally got all the bushings out. Took the end carriers to a machine shop and had the big one piece bushings pressed out. Amazing how much easier it is with the right tools. Time to get this thing back together again. Quote
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