Starting out..

[ApolloKnight]

Well, someone told me to post over here so im so you american racin boy's can help me out.

 

Hello all. Ive done quite a bit of research but I still cannot find the answer I'm looking for..or maybe I have but I've just missed it.

 

Anyways, I'm looking to start out in racing GT style cars, camaros, vettes, firebirds, etc. Ive got a 94' Camaro that i want to convert and use for racing, being it has somewhere in the neighborhood of 240k miles and the 3.4L motor is destroyed.. but I do have two LT1 blocks laying around that need rebuilding anyways, lol. But.. i'm not sure what class to join into, or what rules to use to rebuild the car/motor. I'm hoping to spend about $4-7k, and I live in central Florida, so it would have to be Middle to eastern US for racing...

 

My question is, what kind of series should I join? I have been racing Formula 500 race cars for a while now, but only in auto cross...I don't have a competition license or anything yet...

 

What should I do?

 

Thanks,

Justin.

[pendejoengineering]

One step at a time. Start with the NASA HPDE events and then work your way up to a comp license. At that point you will probably want to start in the CMC group if your on a budget and then move into AI. You will have a great racing experience.

 

Good Luck

[jon dawes]

What he said! And when the time comes, you can rent a CMC or AI car through an 'arrive and drive' program. You COULD build a car, and some would have it no other way...but for the money buying an already prepped car is 'immediate gratification' at a fraction of the cost.

 

Whatever you can do to get seat time is what you should do. Check out the HPDE section on this forum.

[Raybob9289]

Justin,

CMC is the way to get started buddy,,,

If there are no GM f-body guys to help you out in florida feel free to check with RMR Dudes or Texas guys.

[marshallmosty]

Justin,

Just as all have pointed out, it appears that your entry budget would be better suited in the CMC group. You can have a "mid pack" CMC car for that type of money, IMHO.

 

**My Opinions**

Front running CMC car... $12-15K

Front running AI car... ??? ($25K+ if you do all the work)

[FBody383]

Check http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com as well.

 

Feel free to contact the national/regional directors with questions. I'm building a CMC car and will tell you the AI/CMC group is a phenomenal group of people.

 

David

2008 CMC Rookie

[ApolloKnight]

Check http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com as well.

 

Feel free to contact the national/regional directors with questions. I'm building a CMC car and will tell you the AI/CMC group is a phenomenal group of people.

 

David

2008 CMC Rookie

 

David,

 

Im going to start building as soon as I can get the order in for parts...would you mind sending me specs of your car? Major mods, etc? I looked around on the site but I'm not finding the exact specs for what you need....im going to look again though.

 

-Justin

[ApolloKnight]

Well, if ound the .Pdf of the rules, but I do have a couple questions..

 

CMC-1 Its basically a stock car, gutted interior w/ roll cage and safety features? Thats what im understanding out of the rules... so if I rebuild one of my LT1 motors to stock, throw it in a car that has been gutted, thats all I can do as far as motor work goes?

 

Suspension setups....am I allowed to run whatever i want (shocks, springs, strut tower bracing, etc?)

 

-AK

[marshallmosty]

Suspension is pretty closely regulated, but springs and struts/shocks are open. Shocks have a retail price ceiling, but it's pretty high for most non-remote reservoir types.

 

Suspension bushings are open, but the pickup points must be stock. Rod ends can replace suspension bushings, but the geometry must be stock and the jam nuts must be welded to not allow adjustment.

 

Spring perches can be adjustable, but just not with the spring installed.

 

Brakes have specific limitation for each make. Brake pads and cooling ducts are open.

 

Modifications to bodywork are limited (check rules).

 

 

Basically, if the rules don't specifically say you "can".... then you can't.

 

 

Good luck!!!

[ApolloKnight]

Suspension is pretty closely regulated, but springs and struts/shocks are open. Shocks have a retail price ceiling, but it's pretty high for most non-remote reservoir types.

 

Suspension bushings are open, but the pickup points must be stock. Rod ends can replace suspension bushings, but the geometry must be stock and the jam nuts must be welded to not allow adjustment.

 

Spring perches can be adjustable, but just not with the spring installed.

 

Brakes have specific limitation for each make. Brake pads and cooling ducts are open.

 

Modifications to bodywork are limited (check rules).

 

 

Basically, if the rules don't specifically say you "can".... then you can't.

 

 

Good luck!!!

 

Ohhh ok. So its pretty much go buy one off the showroom, gut the interior, slap in a roll cage and go racing type of deal?

[jon dawes]

 

Ohhh ok. So its pretty much go buy one off the showroom, gut the interior, slap in a roll cage and go racing type of deal?

Yes and no. NONE of the CMC cars are exactly the same. You can make lots of modifications here and there, but must keep an eye on the rules. You CAN race a car as you described, but what about an oil cooler? Bigger radiator? Better bushings? Subframe connectors? Brake ducts? Upgraded pads/rotors/lines? And on and on and on, all within the rules.

 

Basically what is your goal? If it's to build a car first and learn to drive it second, then do that. If it's to learn how to drive and then to figure out if you want to build a car, do that. There is no magic formula, but you may be better off w/seat time first, then getting into a rental to compare different cars, then either buying or building your own car.

 

Just so you don't think I'm condescending or trying to tell you what to do, I started with my street car for roughly one season of HPDEs, then bought a 'track' car to build into a CMC car, then bought a prepped race car when I realized I didn't have the time to actually build a race car...and I'm still in HPDE2. So, I've not exactly followed my own advice! Just letting you know that different folks will give you different advice, and having an idea of what your goal/s are/is may help you 'stay on the path'.

 

...and I just realized this is in the AI section and would be better suited for the HPDE section...Sorry!

[D Algozine]

My advise, initially spend as little money as possible, until you can make an informed decission about what class or car you want to race. The minium is a decent car set up to run HPDE. You don't need big HP, trick suspension , huge brakes, roll cage, fuel cell...etc, to get on track. A reliable car with decent springs, shccks and brakes, gets you on track inexpensively and quickly. Get experience behind the wheel of anything. Then look around the paddock, and ask questions about the cars, different classes and talk to the drivers. Then consider buying an existing race car, when the time comes. It's cheaper, and quicker.

[ST#97]

 

**My Opinions**

Front running CMC car... $12-15K

Front running AI car... ??? ($25K+ if you do all the work)

 

You're smoking crack again! Triple that and you can run at the front with regularity. Now you might be able to buy a used Front running AI car for that or a little North of that which is a bargain.

[jon dawes]

When you guys say 'Front Running', do you mean NATIONALLY or REGIONALLY? Not that it makes that much difference to beginners like me...but CMC is 'supposed' to be a for those with smaller budgets, right?! And I know for a fact that the CMC guys I know haven't spent $36-45k on their cars. That's absurd! isn't it? Although if you take into account EVERYTHING maybe it gets up there [truck, trailer, reg fees, fuel, repairs, accommodations, etc.].

[ST#97]

When you guys say 'Front Running', do you mean NATIONALLY or REGIONALLY? Not that it makes that much difference to beginners like me...but CMC is 'supposed' to be a for those with smaller budgets, right?! And I know for a fact that the CMC guys I know haven't spent $36-45k on their cars. That's absurd! isn't it? Although if you take into account EVERYTHING maybe it gets up there [truck, trailer, reg fees, fuel, repairs, accommodations, etc.].

 

I suggest that you NEVER add up the receipts or track what you spend on racing... I also suggest NEVER letting your wife know about it either! LOL!!!

[jon dawes]

When you guys say 'Front Running', do you mean NATIONALLY or REGIONALLY? Not that it makes that much difference to beginners like me...but CMC is 'supposed' to be a for those with smaller budgets, right?! And I know for a fact that the CMC guys I know haven't spent $36-45k on their cars. That's absurd! isn't it? Although if you take into account EVERYTHING maybe it gets up there [truck, trailer, reg fees, fuel, repairs, accommodations, etc.].

 

I suggest that you NEVER add up the receipts or track what you spend on racing... I also suggest NEVER letting your wife know about it either! LOL!!!

 

Hehe...point well taken. "No honey, don't be rediculous, CMC has nothing to do with racing of any sort! It's where I 'volunteer' all of 'my'...ahem....'extra' time and money. It's the local chapter of Caring for Maladjusted Children. I meet all kinds of 'special' folks there who are more than happy to take my donations."

[FBody383]

 

Justin,

 

You certainly don't want the specs of a yet-to-be-finished-currently-non-running car...

 

If you're convinced CMC is the way to go, find the closest NASA event you can get to and participate in an HPDE. During your free time, which will probably only exist after your last session, talk to the CMC guys. I took about a year researching the class (reading the CCR, CMC rules, etc.) and meeting several folks before I took the plunge on a car.

 

Marshall laid it out very succinctly - in CMC, if the rules don't say you CAN, then you CAN'T. CMC is a stock motor, stock suspension layout, limited modification class - on purpose.

 

Welcome to the madness...

 

David

[bsim]

Yes you can have a car, gut it per the rules, add the safety items, and go racing in CMC.

 

If you can with with that setup, you shouldn't be racing in CMC.

 

You need to determine what you want to race and what you want out of racing before you decide which class to go into. If you want to run a V8, you'll prefer NASA to SCCA. As far as I know, a V8 in SCCA is in American Sedan (carbed 305s), T2 (cars less than 5 yrs. old) or ITE (where you'll lose against big $$ 911s). So, now we're in NASA, where to run the Camaro? CMC, AI, or AIX?

 

What you want out of racing will determine the pick here. Do you want to have fun cheaply (in racing terms)? CMC. Do you want to have more leeway in rules? AI. No rules (and a big fat wallet)? AIX.

 

$ - CMC is basically safety, no motor mods, open suspension components. As noted above, no altering the location of those components. HP is limited to 235 (or 275 in CMC2).

 

$$-$$$ - AI opens a lot you can do, but do you want to wrench and fab the car yourself, or just throw your wallet at go fast parts? For the weights, 320-330 HP seems the norm.

 

$$$$$ - AIX is for the hard workers and/or unGodly (for me) money. I've heard rumors of 500+ HP cars. Them ain't cheap.

 

A good CMC car can be found for ~$10k. If you want to build your car up, plan on spending at least that. I've seen AI cars averaging $20k, and AIX up from there.

 

The advice so far is sound - start in HPDEs, add the safety items, and get on track. Try not to bring the street mentality of "I gotta add power to go fast". In many races these little 230 HP CMC cars lap faster than some AI cars.

 

But then again, Ryan's little Civic is almost as fast at Mid-Ohio.

[King Matt]

Try not to bring the street mentality of "I gotta add power to go fast". In many races these little 230 HP CMC cars lap faster than some AI cars.

That's pretty good advice. Far too often I've seen people get in over their head with an AI car because they already had this-or-that part that was not CMC legal and they just could not wrap their head around the concept of taking speed parts off their car. But AI is an entirely different proposition than CMC, not just in terms of budget, but also in the approach to racing. If you are the type of person that wants to build a car to a given set of limited rules and compete on a relatively level mechanical playing field, then I think CMC is the best class to race a V-8 RWD pony car. AI is a great class if you are into tinkering and engineering your car to the ultimate potential of a relatively open rule set. But I see a lot of people in AI with cars that are not even close to being maximized under the rules running around in the mid-pack, and justifying that because they don't want to or can't spend the money to compete with the front runners. I have no interest in spending the money it takes to build a competitive AI car, but I still want to have a shot at running with the front runners, so I have been very happy in CMC.

[brian-groth]

Very very sound avice given in this thread.

 

To expand on what Matt touched on. My best advice is to buy a well sorted existing race car. I got into racing with multiple friends that decided building thier cars into race cars was better while I bought a well sorted race car. I was on the track racing while they were still dumping money into thier cars sorting out misc problems, it was very sad to watch.

 

I open tracked/instructed for 5 years before going wheel to wheel racing, and trust me, making the transition is tough enough.....I can't imagine making the transition WHILE trying to sort a car out. In three years of racing, I have yet to adjust a spring or shock, and I mean nothing. My idea is that the driver needs more help than the car.

 

Brian

[Flying Fred]

Very very sound avice given in this thread.

 

To expand on what Matt touched on. My best advice is to buy a well sorted existing race car. I got into racing with multiple friends that decided building thier cars into race cars was better while I bought a well sorted race car. I was on the track racing while they were still dumping money into thier cars sorting out misc problems, it was very sad to watch.

 

I open tracked/instructed for 5 years before going wheel to wheel racing, and trust me, making the transition is tough enough.....I can't imagine making the transition WHILE trying to sort a car out. In three years of racing, I have yet to adjust a spring or shock, and I mean nothing. My idea is that the driver needs more help than the car.

 

Brian

Being one of your friends who entered this with you and sorted out a race car for 3 years, I have some thoughts of my own. I certainly won't argue against your advice to buy a well sorted race car - if that is what one wants to do. As you know, that's not how or why I got into racing. I had no desire to scrap my R and didn't care about being competitive or winning championships.

 

It may have been sad for you to watch me sort things out, but it has been equally sad to watch you lose interest (especially as the competition started to heat up). You may not have adjusted a spring or shock, but I've seen you plenty frustrated with your share of mechanical problems the past year plus (possibly from not working on your car for nearly 2 years?).

 

Bottom line is people enter racing for a variety of reasons. Just cause you chose a different path, don't go picking mine apart.

[brian-groth]

Very very sound avice given in this thread.

 

To expand on what Matt touched on. My best advice is to buy a well sorted existing race car. I got into racing with multiple friends that decided building thier cars into race cars was better while I bought a well sorted race car. I was on the track racing while they were still dumping money into thier cars sorting out misc problems, it was very sad to watch.

 

I open tracked/instructed for 5 years before going wheel to wheel racing, and trust me, making the transition is tough enough.....I can't imagine making the transition WHILE trying to sort a car out. In three years of racing, I have yet to adjust a spring or shock, and I mean nothing. My idea is that the driver needs more help than the car.

 

Brian

Being one of your friends who entered this with you and sorted out a race car for 3 years, I have some thoughts of my own. I certainly won't argue against your advice to buy a well sorted race car - if that is what one wants to do. As you know, that's not how or why I got into racing. I had no desire to scrap my R and didn't care about being competitive or winning championships.

 

It may have been sad for you to watch me sort things out, but it has been equally sad to watch you lose interest (especially as the competition started to heat up). You may not have adjusted a spring or shock, but I've seen you plenty frustrated with your share of mechanical problems the past year plus (possibly from not working on your car for nearly 2 years?).

 

Bottom line is people enter racing for a variety of reasons. Just cause you chose a different path, don't go picking mine apart.

 

Wow..........Sorry, but I wasn't referring to you, Fred. No doubt we have all had mechanical problems and challenges...............and they have tried our patience, that is part of racing.

 

Brian

[marshallmosty]

 

**My Opinions**

Front running CMC car... $12-15K

Front running AI car... ??? ($25K+ if you do all the work)

 

You're smoking crack again! Triple that and you can run at the front with regularity. Now you might be able to buy a used Front running AI car for that or a little North of that which is a bargain.

 

 

Matt,

IF you do all the work yourself, I don't think a $25K car won't be competitive regionally or nationally. Remember, you're off in the land of $5-8K engines with your mod madness. My 302 has maybe $1500 in the entire long block and I'm at power/weight.

 

It's more in the development of the car and not in the money spent.

 

You don't have to buy ALL the speed parts to make a winning car.

 

Remember that there were four of us running almost identical lap times at the last event... consistancy is the king.

[ST#97]

It's more in the development of the car and not in the money spent. Development = Money... how much is track time? bout 800-1000 bucks a weekend..?

 

You don't have to buy ALL the speed parts to make a winning car. True to a point, I still run 25lb Cobra R's...the rest of our region is running sub 17lb wheels. However, a stock suspension Mustang with a stock motor and an ordinary driver AIN'T going to win in AI. Development of those 3 items costs a lot of money, especially the Driver!

 

Remember that there were four of us running almost identical lap times at the last event... consistancy is the king. Short course, crappy surface and I would look at the RACE lap times and not qual... August will be much different on a BIG track and you still need to dyno!

 

 

 

I just think it's a bad idea to tell someone that spending $X, let's say $25k, and you will be a "front runner" in AI is just bad information. All in with car, support equipment, and development, I would say $50k is a good REALISTIC start, taking into consideration everything from the day you decide to start racing, to the day you step foot on a podium....assuming the driver can drive the car to it's full potential and finish each race.

 

I won't speak for CMC costs because I just don't know...my GUESS would be $20k could get you to the front in MOST regions....NOT Texas!!

[marshallmosty]

Remember that there were four of us running almost identical lap times at the last event... consistancy is the king. Short course, crappy surface and I would look at the RACE lap times and not qual... August will be much different on a BIG track and you still need to dyno!

 

Matt,

I DID compare R3 times... you were faster on about 60% of the laps, I was faster on 40%... Overall, our times weren't that far away from each other. You just were able to space it out and not fight with as much "in class" traffic.

 

Regarding the dyno... you know my decision to run AIX this year. I can still run with you guys, just not to much pressure.

 

 

Anyway, we've trashed this thread enough.

 

Point is you can build a fast CAR on a budget that doesn't eat up a full year's salary... but then again, I guess it depends on your salary.

 

 

 

 

 

I just think it's a bad idea to tell someone that spending $X, let's say $25k, and you will be a "front runner" in AI is just bad information. All in with car, support equipment, and development, I would say $50k is a good REALISTIC start, taking into consideration everything from the day you decide to start racing, to the day you step foot on a podium....assuming the driver can drive the car to it's full potential and finish each race.

 

I won't speak for CMC costs because I just don't know...my GUESS would be $20k could get you to the front in MOST regions....NOT Texas!!