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geerookie

Need Help with New rules for HPDE Harnesses and Seatbelts?

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geerookie

Does anybody know where I can find the official statement(s) on the new rules?

I have a C5 Corvette coupe, unmodified engine, factory sport seats, upgraded suspension. I was thinking about adding a HardBar harness bar and Schroth 4 point harnesses (driver and passenger),

This will only be for HPDE use.

This is a link to the harness:

 

http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/store/schroth/street-legal/rallye" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

Will this be legal/acceptable?

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nasaregistrar
Does anybody know where I can find the official statement(s) on the new rules?

I have a C5 Corvette coupe, unmodified engine, factory sport seats, upgraded suspension. I was thinking about adding a HardBar harness bar and Schroth 4 point harnesses (driver and passenger),

This one

 

http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/store/schroth/street-legal/rallye" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

Will this be legal/acceptable?

No, the 4 point Schroth does not comply with the CCR

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geerookie

No, the 4 point Schroth does not comply with the CCR

 

I read this elsewhere:

For this season there is a new updated tech. sheet which says we will no longer allow "race belts" with stock seats.We are looking for "race seats" with "race belts" installed to NASA GCR code 15.5 or "stock seats" with "stock belts".

What has happened in the past was there have been instances of very "creative methods" of installing race belts by newbies that never ran track events before or not many events in general.Some of these installations were just for "appearance" and not very safe at all.All of us in Tech. are volunteers, and with the many events held on weekdays or weekends,continuity in regards to standards was difficult to maintain due to the possibility of different staff per event.This makes it very difficult to assess each installation as the staff member in tech on any given day may/may not be qualified to make the call on the quality of the install in question.This was the reason to require race seats/racebelts or stock seats/stock belts-no gray area,just black or white.

Just think of the compressive forces on the seat back in a frontal collision as your body goes forward with the belts pulling down compressing your spine as the seatback compresses.The stock seatback was never designed to cope with force in that direction.Also,you drivers have cars with the potential performance of race cars in the speeds and cornering forces.At the speeds you are reaching(120mph+),wouldn't you want to be safer with proper seats and harness that are as uprated as most of your suspensions and engines??Some of you will spend $20,000 on the engine but will not want to spend $500 on proper seats and belts in hopes of keeping the buget down.The stock seats were designed by GM to work with the airbags and 3-point belt as a unit,and any alteration may give unknown results in a collision. However there are some 4-point belts (Scroth for ex.) that are certified to be used in particular installations and have been tested and certified to DOT FMVSS 209 in those particular intallations and will be permitted to run.

 

Dave Deerson

NASA/PDA Tech.

 

Now I'm confused.

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nasaregistrar

Where did you read that?

I had a long conversation with Jim Politi last year at VIR regarding the tech for the Schroth 4 point belts. We read the letter, and it was determined that Schroth is self certifying the belts, they are NOT DOT certified, therefore section 15.5.1 prohibits a 4 point belt.

 

11.4.8 Seatbelts and Harnesses

The seatbelts should be in good condition. No damage may be present on the seatbelts

and they must be the factory configuration. Any harness or any restraint system, other

than factory stock, shall conform to CCR section #15.5, in all respects* except for the

expiration regulations. Harnesses that are expired for racing may be used providing that

they are in at least very good condition. The use of a lap belt without any shoulder

restraint is not permitted. Passenger seatbelts must meet the same minimum

requirements per the CCR as the driver seatbelts if being used by a passenger. Notepassenger

equipment need not match the installed equipment on the driver’s side.

*Aftermarket DOT-certified belt sets, installed to the manufacturer’s specifications may

be allowed. Proof of DOT certification and proper installation is the driver’s

responsibility.

 

 

15.5 Driver restraint system

(See diagram at end of section)

1. All vehicles must have a five (5), six (6), or seven (7) point seat belt system. Arm

restraints are required in open cars and cars with: Open T-tops, Open Targa

tops, missing moon/sun roofs, or glass moon/sun roofs.

2. A five (5) point system consists of: a three (3) inch lap belt, two shoulder belts

that are either two (2) or three (3) inches wide, and a two (2) inch anti-submarine

strap.

3. A six (6) point system is recommended for cars where the driver is seated in an

upright (to thirty (30) degrees) or a semi-reclining position. It consists of two (2)

anti-submarine belts in addition to lap and shoulder belts. Note: Current FIA

Approved belt sets with two (2) inch lap belts are acceptable with the six (6) point

system.

4. A seven (7) point system is recommended for seats with more than thirty (30)

degrees of incline. Note: Current FIA Approved belt sets with two (2) inch lap

belts are acceptable with the seven (7) point system.

5. The material of all straps should be Nylon or polyester, and in new or perfect

condition. The buckles should be metal quick release. There should be a

common release for all belts. [Note: Certain Momo brand belts were recalled by

the manufacturer. These are NOT suitable for racing.]

6. The shoulder harness shall be mounted behind the driver and above a line drawn

downward from the shoulder point at an angle of no more than twenty (20)

degrees with the horizontal.

7. The seat, seat holes, and attachments to the seat are not permissible “harness

guides” for compliance with the angle requirement. Only specific harness guide

bars, or parts of the chassis or the cage are allowed to be used for this purpose.

The guide bar, if used, should not present a sharp edge to the belt. It should

provide as much area of support as possible to distribute the load.

8. Only separate shoulder straps are permitted. “H” type belts are allowed. “Y”

type belts are not allowed. Each shoulder strap must have an independent

mounting point.

9. All mounting hardware should be SAE grade five (5) or better. Large diameter

mounting washers should be used to spread the load. Bolting through floor

panels etc. is not acceptable without required washers.

10. All belts should meet at least one of the following:

A) SFI Specification 16.1 or 16.5 (for use with HANS only) and shall bear a

dated label of no more than two (2) years old. At least one date label is

required on belt sets.

B) A restraint system meeting FIA spec #8853/1985, 8853/98, or D-###.T/98,

including amendment 1/92 may be used. FIA certified belts have a label that

shows an expiration date. The belts cannot be used past December 31st of

the year shown on the label. At least one date label is required on belt sets.

11. All drivers should take care to ensure that their belts are properly worn, adjusted,

and latched. “Cam-lock” type belts can be subject to inadvertent release,

should the driver fail to ensure that they are properly latched.

58

12. Any driver involved in a high impact crash shall send all of their safety belts back

to the manufacturer for inspection, re-webbing if necessary, and re-certification

before they may be used again in competition. Proof of re-certification is the

driver’s responsibility.

13. All belts should be threaded to the manufacturer’s instructions. An example of

one type of threading instruction set appears at end of this section.

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NOT///MPOWER

 

7. The seat, seat holes, and attachments to the seat are not permissible “harness

guides” for compliance with the angle requirement. Only specific harness guide

bars, or parts of the chassis or the cage are allowed to be used for this purpose.

The guide bar, if used, should not present a sharp edge to the belt. It should

provide as much area of support as possible to distribute the load.

 

Sean,

 

Do I understand the above statement in the rules to mean that I cannot mount my lap & sub straps to the seat mounting points, or seatmount, even if there are pre-drilled & tapped holes in the seat mount? I am using Corbeau Forza seats, and mounts, with double locking sliders. The harness mounting points are in the seat mount & not the slider, and are secured with grade 8 hardware.

 

The shoulder straps are attached to an autopower bolt in 4-point roll bar (attached to the harness bar section) which is attached with grade 8 bolts & fender washers.

 

Sorry for the hijack, but worried now that VIR is next weekend!

 

Fritz

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nasaregistrar

 

7. The seat, seat holes, and attachments to the seat are not permissible “harness

guides” for compliance with the angle requirement. Only specific harness guide

bars, or parts of the chassis or the cage are allowed to be used for this purpose.

The guide bar, if used, should not present a sharp edge to the belt. It should

provide as much area of support as possible to distribute the load.

 

Sean,

 

Do I understand the above statement in the rules to mean that I cannot mount my lap & sub straps to the seat mounting points, or seatmount, even if there are pre-drilled & tapped holes in the seat mount? I am using Corbeau Forza seats, and mounts, with double locking sliders. The harness mounting points are in the seat mount & not the slider, and are secured with grade 8 hardware.

 

The shoulder straps are attached to an autopower bolt in 4-point roll bar (attached to the harness bar section) which is attached with grade 8 bolts & fender washers.

 

Sorry for the hijack, but worried now that VIR is next weekend!

 

Fritz

Fritz,

 

I understand item 7 to refer to item 6 which is for the shoulder belts, and I understand it to mean you cannot use those items to correct the angle if it is not properly installed.

 

This question is better answered by Grumpy.

Edited by Guest

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nasaregistrar

 

7. The seat, seat holes, and attachments to the seat are not permissible “harness

guides” for compliance with the angle requirement. Only specific harness guide

bars, or parts of the chassis or the cage are allowed to be used for this purpose.

The guide bar, if used, should not present a sharp edge to the belt. It should

provide as much area of support as possible to distribute the load.

 

Sean,

 

Do I understand the above statement in the rules to mean that I cannot mount my lap & sub straps to the seat mounting points, or seatmount, even if there are pre-drilled & tapped holes in the seat mount? I am using Corbeau Forza seats, and mounts, with double locking sliders. The harness mounting points are in the seat mount & not the slider, and are secured with grade 8 hardware.

 

The shoulder straps are attached to an autopower bolt in 4-point roll bar (attached to the harness bar section) which is attached with grade 8 bolts & fender washers.

 

Sorry for the hijack, but worried now that VIR is next weekend!

 

Fritz

Frits,

 

I understand item 7 to refer to item 6 which is for the shoulder belts, and I understand it to mean you cannot use those items to correct the angle if it is not properly installed.

 

This question is should answered by Grumpy (Jim Politi).

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NOT///MPOWER

That was my understanding as well. Thank you.

I'll contact Grumpy to double check. Hopefully he won't be too busy between planning events & Grassroots Motorsports photo shoots!

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NOT///MPOWER

For clarification... just got a reply from Jim Politi (a.k.a. Grumpy)...

 

He said:

 

"Sorry, no. Seat belts must be attached to the car, not stuff attached to the

car."

 

Pretty simple.

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nasaregistrar
For clarification... just got a reply from Jim Politi (a.k.a. Grumpy)...

 

He said:

 

"Sorry, no. Seat belts must be attached to the car, not stuff attached to the

car."

 

Pretty simple.

For clarification... just got a reply from Jim Politi (a.k.a. Grumpy)...

 

He said:

 

"Sorry, no. Seat belts must be attached to the car, not stuff attached to the

car."

 

Pretty simple.

 

Yep, Jim is like that.....

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NOT///MPOWER

Just wondering, tho...

 

The shoulder harnesses are attached to the harness bar, which is bolted to the roll bar, which is botled to the car. So in essence, the shoulder harnesses are attached to stuff that's attached to the car, and not the car.

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NOT///MPOWER

Just paid for eight sets of eye-bolt mounting hardware to bring my harnesses into compliance with the regs...

 

Harness lap & sub belts wiil henceforth be mounted to the CAR... not stuff attached to the CAR!!!

 

Thanks Sean & Jim for your help!

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FastSaleen
Just wondering, tho...

 

The shoulder harnesses are attached to the harness bar, which is bolted to the roll bar, which is botled to the car. So in essence, the shoulder harnesses are attached to stuff that's attached to the car, and not the car.

 

I believe that the shoulder belts are the exception to that rule. The 'Harness Bar' was designed for the attachment of the shoulder harnesses.

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NOT///MPOWER

Thanks... I was just trying to be funny. Guess it didn't work!

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badass55

Shorth has a 4/5 point harness that is DOT/FIA legal. It comes in a push button buckle and the cam lock can be enter changed. The inside shoulder has the label for DOT/FIA. I have been to two weekends and have had no problems with the belts. I went with the 4 point and later added the fifth. Get the five up front. My shoulders are connected to a harness bar and I attached the outer lap belt to the stock location and drilled the inner side added the braces. I did the same with the ASM strap (5th point) my stock belts are still in the vehicle because I do not like the push button. It made a huge improvement to my driving

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Grumpy

For seat belt purposes the rollcage is considered "the car" and not an attachment. The "Harness bar" is for all practible purposes a harness bar.

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NOT///MPOWER

Thanks for the clarification, Jim! See you Friday!

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n1cK!
Sean,

 

Do I understand the above statement in the rules to mean that I cannot mount my lap & sub straps to the seat mounting points, or seatmount, even if there are pre-drilled & tapped holes in the seat mount? I am using Corbeau Forza seats, and mounts, with double locking sliders. The harness mounting points are in the seat mount & not the slider, and are secured with grade 8 hardware.

 

The shoulder straps are attached to an autopower bolt in 4-point roll bar (attached to the harness bar section) which is attached with grade 8 bolts & fender washers.

 

Sorry for the hijack, but worried now that VIR is next weekend!

 

Fritz

 

sorry to butt-in, but fritz, how did you end up mounting your harness with the Forza seats? i am planning on getting one and want to make sure that i mount the harness correctly. i would like to use what you have as an example as i will be using the same seat.

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n1cK!
6. The shoulder harness shall be mounted behind the driver and above a line drawn downward from the shoulder point at an angle of no more than twenty (20)

degrees with the horizontal.

 

okay, so another question - we know the angle at which the shoulder straps should be, but where can we mount it without a roll bar or a harness bar? is it acceptable to mount them on the "baby seat" brackets on the rear deck?

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Bruce L.

sure, if you plan to have a baby driving the car

 

seat belt anchor points - if you can't make them work, you can't use harnesses.

bruce

 

 

 

 

6. The shoulder harness shall be mounted behind the driver and above a line drawn downward from the shoulder point at an angle of no more than twenty (20)

degrees with the horizontal.

 

okay, so another question - we know the angle at which the shoulder straps should be, but where can we mount it without a roll bar or a harness bar? is it acceptable to mount them on the "baby seat" brackets on the rear deck?

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n1cK!
sure, if you plan to have a baby driving the car

 

seat belt anchor points - if you can't make them work, you can't use harnesses.

bruce

 

i guess it was pretty silly...

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n1cK!

after doing a little research, i found that the child seat anchors can be removed. the existing holes, which are in the chassis, can then be used if one were to fabricate a harness bar to bolt them in. this should be acceptable, as long as it (the bar/guide) did not present a sharp edge to the harness and met the 20 degree (horizontal) requirement.

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Bruce L.

how do you know the chassis is strong enough there? Not an area to be guessing.

 

Whatever you plan to do, I would pre-clear it with your local NASA tech inspector.

cheers,

bruce

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n1cK!
how do you know the chassis is strong enough there? Not an area to be guessing.

 

Whatever you plan to do, I would pre-clear it with your local NASA tech inspector.

cheers,

bruce

 

i guess i really don't know how strong the chassis is there. i just assumed that since it was used for a child seat anchor that it would be. i realize that the weight of an adult is much greater than a child, but i just figured nissan overengineered it for liability purposes. any tech's care to chime in?

 

i haven't seen a G35 with a harness mounted per the CCR - harnesses i have seen are either for show, or for auto-x, but do not follow any kind of regulation. i'm just tired of shifting in my seats while i drive.

 

thanks for the tips bruce.

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Grumpy
sure, if you plan to have a baby driving the car

 

seat belt anchor points - if you can't make them work, you can't use harnesses.

bruce

 

 

 

 

6. The shoulder harness shall be mounted behind the driver and above a line drawn downward from the shoulder point at an angle of no more than twenty (20)

degrees with the horizontal.

 

okay, so another question - we know the angle at which the shoulder straps should be, but where can we mount it without a roll bar or a harness bar? is it acceptable to mount them on the "baby seat" brackets on the rear deck?

 

If you use racing harnesses you must mount them according to manufacturer's specifications within the NASA rule structure. The baby mount is out. Harness belts require one mounting point PER BELT as well. A harmess bar should be used to direct the angle of the belts across the shoulders. There are instructions and diagrams in the seat belt section of the rules for racers. You must comply with the racers rules when you use racers seatbelts.

 

We had a great seminar on safety on just this at VIR last weekend. The seat, the belts and the rollcage are one system and should be installed as a system, according to Bill Love, owner of OG Racing and expert in the field of racer safety.

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