Jump to content
geerookie

Need Help with New rules for HPDE Harnesses and Seatbelts?

Recommended Posts

n1cK!
There are instructions and diagrams in the seat belt section of the rules for racers. You must comply with the racers rules when you use racers seatbelts.

 

We had a great seminar on safety on just this at VIR last weekend. The seat, the belts and the rollcage are one system and should be installed as a system, according to Bill Love, owner of OG Racing and expert in the field of racer safety.

 

jim, i couldn't find this diagram that you refer to. the only one i saw was for threading of the belt. is it safe to assume that there should be a diagram from the manufacturer of the belt?

 

i sure would have liked to listen in on that seminar. hopefully we'll have one like it here in the so cal region.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Scott G.

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment so all the NASA leadership can yell at me.

 

We seem to be pretty quick to tell folks they can't run various harness solutions. And I'm not sure that the CCR supports the negative responses. We can't point to a paragraph (Para 7) that clearly is intended to only discuss the angle requirement of shoulder strap anchors and use it to interpret questions that have nothing to do with shoulder strap angles.

 

Where does it say that you can't fasten a waist belt or an anti-sub belt to the seat mount? I don't mean the seat and I don't mean the slider. I mean the solid steel that makes up the standard seat mount. The CCR does not support a blanket "you can't do that". Therefore the event inspector needs to look at it and make a judgement call.

 

Where does it say that shoulder belts can't be fastened to misc attachment points like what might be possibly used for a childseat? The CCR doesn't rule this out at all. There may be cars that have misc attachment points in the rear that are solid as OEM seatbelt points and also provide a shoulder strap angle that is within the reg.

 

My point is that we shouldn't just say "No, not acceptable". An inspector needs to see it and make a reasonable call based on the CCR and their experience. If the mounting points are reasonably solid and the shoulder strap angle is ok, then it should be approved. And reasonably solid (an idea that is undefined in the CCR) should be compared, for HPDE, to OEM not to something that is less realistic for an unmodified street car.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LMan
There may be cars that have misc attachment points in the rear that are solid as OEM seatbelt points and also provide a shoulder strap angle that is within the reg.

 

 

Italicized for emphasis, and the show-stopping point.

 

You can't assume that the OEM infant-seat mounting points can hold up to a full-grown adult's weight/inertia in a frontal impact (Im no engineer, but the forward force is prob some triple-square-cube of the weight, yada, yada...in any case the force applied to the anchor point is much greater than simply the "resting" weight difference bw an adult and an infant), and if challenged to prove such, I doubt such design/test data is readily available from the manufacturer. You certainly cannot expect a NASA Tech Inspector to know which baby-anchors are OK and which are not.

 

You can assume that the normal attachment points are sufficient, however.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Scott G.
There may be cars that have misc attachment points in the rear that are solid as OEM seatbelt points and also provide a shoulder strap angle that is within the reg.

 

 

Italicized for emphasis, and the show-stopping point.

 

You can't assume that the OEM infant-seat mounting points can hold up to a full-grown adult's weight/inertia in a frontal impact (Im no engineer, but the forward force is prob some triple-square-cube of the weight, yada, yada...in any case the force applied to the anchor point is much greater than simply the "resting" weight difference bw an adult and an infant), and if challenged to prove such, I doubt such design/test data is readily available from the manufacturer. You certainly cannot expect a NASA Tech Inspector to know which baby-anchors are OK and which are not.

 

You can assume that the normal attachment points are sufficient, however.

 

Hmm. Let me try a different angle: I'm not assuming anything. I'm saying that blanket answers of "no" are the wrong approach when the "no" is unsupported by the CCR and an inspector isn't given an opportunity to use his/her judgement.

 

Look at a race car's annual tech, for example. An experienced inspector looks at how the belts are anchored and makes a judgement call. What he does not do is require the racer to produce testing data that shows that a certain hole drilled into his tunnel wall and then reinforced with welded sheet steel resists a certain force at a certain angle.

 

Recall that this all started because (I contend) folks were misinterpreting the CCR. It's fine for an inspector to look at an attachment point and say "not good enough". It's not fine for an inspector to fail someone's car because the inspector misunderstood the CCR.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tonysenese

You know as a tech, I am alway suspicious when I see a street car with anything other than stock belts. Most people have little or no reason to change the belts, and I have certainly never hear anyone say it was for safety.

 

We often here some version of "it makes the car easier to drive" That is just crazy.

 

Seat time makes the car easier to drive, without a racing seat a 4,5 point harness is just plain dangerous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kbrew8991

Tony, slide around on top of a cloth seat while you pull ~1.2g and then tell me that being held tight agaist the seat with a 5pt harness doesn't help you stay planted better

 

- Ken, who is a fan of "do all 3" (seat/bar/harnesses) or do none (for the record)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tonysenese

Ken,

I have been there and done that, and I have also followed folks around the track at 50% and never even had to hold myself into the seat with the wheel. Try a Pontiac Grand Prix with leather seats, comfy on the highway, but not so much on the track. After racing a spec. miata for a few years, I never feel quite safe instructing in a passenger car.

 

I also would "do all three" or nothing. The manufacturers seat belts, retractor mechanisms, and air bags as well as crumple zones, abs and traction control, all help keep our DE drivers safe, but the most important part of the equation is "the loose nut behind the wheel.

 

Vanity mods like psuedo racing seats, and poorly installed 4-5 pt harnesses will never make a track car safer, period. Unfortunately, the fast and the furious among us may be hard to convice of that fact.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
NorrFam

For those in HPDE still on the stock leather seats (or vinyl). I will offer the following "aid"if you want to call it that. The seats are slippery so.... Head down to WalMart, go to the kitchen section, get a roll of the rubbery shelf liner, drawer liner (kind with a million holes in it) for $4.99 and cut a piece for you and your instructor that reaches from the front edge of seat, across the bottom and up the back. It will not match a 5pt harness-for holding you in place-, but if you are still on stock seats, with a 3pt and you have leather or vinyl seats, your sliding days will be over. You will have to straighten it out from time to time but who cares. If you have black seats, buy black liner. I have used it and it works, I have instructors comment on it and shown it to me in their cars later, particularly Mustangs and Vettes. If you like to spend money you can go to a marine store and buy the same thing for $9.99 (keeps things from sliding off counters, tables and chart displays).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
n1cK!

oh hell, i'm just gonna "do all three." i don't wanna die

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
beerkat
Does anybody know where I can find the official statement(s) on the new rules?

I have a C5 Corvette coupe, unmodified engine, factory sport seats, upgraded suspension. I was thinking about adding a HardBar harness bar and Schroth 4 point harnesses (driver and passenger),

This will only be for HPDE use.

This is a link to the harness:

 

http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/store/schroth/street-legal/rallye" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

Will this be legal/acceptable?

 

geerookie I have a C5 ZO6. I use the B-K harness bar with B-K mounting points for the lap and sub belt. You said that you have the sport seats that have a pass through for the shoulder belts. Get yourself some of the B-K mounting points for lab and sub belts and you will be fine. I had to change my stock seats because I did not have a passthroughs for the shoulder belts. New rule says that shoulder belts can not go around the seat anymore. 4 point harness are not allow in most clubs that I know of. Hope this helps you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Scott G.

+1 for staying away from 4pt harnesses. The anti-sub strap is very important. It's not so much that it prevents you from going under the lap belt, it's a little more complicated then that. We do not tend to slide under the lap belt in an accident. Out center mass is above our waist so the shoulders go forward instead. But the shoulder straps of a 4pt will cause the lap belt to rise up your torso. And if it rises above your center mass, then a person would tend to go underneath the lap belt.

 

It's not a black and white issue. Preventing the lap belt from going up the torso is the primary function of the anti-sub strap. Grabbing you in the crotch as you go under is the secondary function. This is because the first action is more likely, but both are equally important. The variables of a crash can be complicated by loose belts and multiple impacts so a person never knows for sure just how they might be thrown around like a rag doll.

 

A 3pt does not tend to lift the lap belt up the torso, and that's why a 3pt is considered safer then a 4pt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Robnie0723
You know as a tech, I am alway suspicious when I see a street car with anything other than stock belts. Most people have little or no reason to change the belts, and I have certainly never hear anyone say it was for safety.

 

We often here some version of "it makes the car easier to drive" That is just crazy.

 

Seat time makes the car easier to drive, without a racing seat a 4,5 point harness is just plain dangerous.

 

That's a direct, easy to understand answer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ewaugh

I've never instructed for NASA before, but I have for many other clubs. Does NASA follow the rule of...if the instructor doesn't think it's safe and chooses not to ride in it then the car doesn't go out? I've only seen one case of this. The car had a rollbar with a driver race seat and harness while the instructor had the stock seat and 3-point. The instructor choose to let the car out (instructor-tech.) It just so happened that the student put two off and tried to jerk it back on track. The impact broke the back of the instructors seat and he cut his chin open on the side of the students race seat.

 

Basically what I'm asking is if I don't think a students car is unsafe for whatever reason am I going to get in trouble for refusing to ride in the car?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
STRINGER

If you feel the students car is unsafe....who cares what it said. It is your life your putting into the students hands. After that...I hope all instructors make two things clear with students....Brake and Pit. So far what I have learned from instructors, those are the most important points to have a student listen to. But I will say also that hand signals on track are far more effective to communicate lines between instructors and students. I want to work on a standard hand signal system for national use. But thats another issue.

 

I am gearing towards being an instructor and I am looking at things a lot different on my car based on that. Accidents happen of course...but if you don't feel safe in the car with a student....don't go. After my first event...I learned a lesson to provide my instructor with equal safety equipment. My second event with the same instructor...he gave me great thanks for providing him with equal safety equipment.

 

I will also say in the rules its not required....but it is highly recommended from the classroom and the instructor does reserve the right to say no.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bruce L.

an instructor will never, ever be in trouble for refusing to ride in a car. Just be sure to make your concerns well known to the chief instructor so the issue can be dealt with.

bruce

 

 

Basically what I'm asking is if I don't think a students car is unsafe for whatever reason am I going to get in trouble for refusing to ride in the car?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tonysenese

When we have our instructors training school, the first thing, and probably the most important thing we teach, is that you NEVER should go out with a student who you feel is unsafe or in a car that you feel is unsafe, period.

 

Many students don't have the experience, or knowledge to judge for themselves what is safe, even if the THINK they do. That is why we are instructors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ewaugh

That's what I expected/hoped for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Chim-Chim

After reading through this thread, I'm still not clear on a question I have (eventually headed towards doing all three...). Can I install an Autopower rollbar and use it with the stock seats/seatbelts? Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Grumpy
After reading through this thread, I'm still not clear on a question I have (eventually headed towards doing all three...). Can I install an Autopower rollbar and use it with the stock seats/seatbelts? Thanks.

 

yes.... but

rollbar + stock seat & stock belts but seat must be setup to not submarine under the rollbar. Your local tech will approve or disapprove your installation.

 

We cannot tech cars over the internet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ev
After reading through this thread, I'm still not clear on a question I have (eventually headed towards doing all three...). Can I install an Autopower rollbar and use it with the stock seats/seatbelts? Thanks.

 

yes.... but

rollbar + stock seat & stock belts but seat must be setup to not submarine under the rollbar. Your local tech will approve or disapprove your installation.

 

We cannot tech cars over the internet.

Confused on this answer. How would one submarine under a rollbar? A rollbar is behind the seat if installed correctly.

 

My main concern on a rollbar is with street use. Rollbars and unhelmeted heads don't mix well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Chim-Chim
After reading through this thread, I'm still not clear on a question I have (eventually headed towards doing all three...). Can I install an Autopower rollbar and use it with the stock seats/seatbelts? Thanks.

 

yes.... but

rollbar + stock seat & stock belts but seat must be setup to not submarine under the rollbar. Your local tech will approve or disapprove your installation.

 

We cannot tech cars over the internet.

Confused on this answer. How would one submarine under a rollbar? A rollbar is behind the seat if installed correctly.

 

My main concern on a rollbar is with street use. Rollbars and unhelmeted heads don't mix well.

 

Here's a picture of an Autopower 6 point rollbar that shows the seat back in relation to the harness bar. I think the concern is submarining under the harness bar? The 4-point I'm looking at has a diagonal that should prevent this on the passenger side, but maybe not on the driver side...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ev

This is personal opinion take it for what it's worth. Do understand though that I work as a safety worker, and I am the one who cleans up the messes.

 

A roll bar in a street car is not a good idea due to the already stated possibility of head to rollbar contact without a helmet

 

A 4 point harness isn't safe as you may slide under the lap belt (submarine) because the shoulder belts will not allow you to lean forward some in a front end collision (note: some 4 points do allow this according to the maker, schroth for example ), you need a 5 point belt.

 

Roll bar mounted harness with a stock seat are not safe as they could allow you to come between the shoulder belts as on a stock seat there is nothing to keep the belts together. Not to mention that stock seats don't have a provision for a sub belt. The biggest mistake I see is people mounting shoulder belts to the floor behind the seat so that when the accident occurs, the belts compress the spine.

 

I may get flamed for this, but the systems in a race car (rollbar/cage, 5 point harness and seat) are designed as just that, a system. Leave out one and you are defeating one of the parts of the system that makes it work. It's like trying to sit on a 3 leg stool, with a missing leg. You "can" do it, but it's not going to work for long.

 

The stock belts are better IMHO than not getting all 3 legs of the stool installed (seat, 5 point belts and a rollbar).

 

Your car, your decision, bottom line. Do the research and make your decision. The decision should be about safety, not vanity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Grumpy
This is personal opinion take it for what it's worth. Do understand though that I work as a safety worker, and I am the one who cleans up the messes.

 

A roll bar in a street car is not a good idea due to the already stated possibility of head to rollbar contact without a helmet

 

A 4 point harness isn't safe as you may slide under the lap belt (submarine) because the shoulder belts will not allow you to lean forward some in a front end collision (note: some 4 points do allow this according to the maker, schroth for example ), you need a 5 point belt.

 

Roll bar mounted harness with a stock seat are not safe as they could allow you to come between the shoulder belts as on a stock seat there is nothing to keep the belts together. Not to mention that stock seats don't have a provision for a sub belt. The biggest mistake I see is people mounting shoulder belts to the floor behind the seat so that when the accident occurs, the belts compress the spine.

 

I may get flamed for this, but the systems in a race car (rollbar/cage, 5 point harness and seat) are designed as just that, a system. Leave out one and you are defeating one of the parts of the system that makes it work. It's like trying to sit on a 3 leg stool, with a missing leg. You "can" do it, but it's not going to work for long.

 

The stock belts are better IMHO than not getting all 3 legs of the stool installed (seat, 5 point belts and a rollbar).

 

Your car, your decision, bottom line. Do the research and make your decision. The decision should be about safety, not vanity.

 

 

+1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geerookie

Seeing as I started this in order to gain some input and direction, I thought I would fill you in on what I decided and some of the reasons.

My original question had 2 points, Can I use the stock seats with the factory shoulder harness pass thru's and a Schroth 4 point harness which is designed to not cause submarining. Nobody was really able to give a clear answer to this. After discussions with Schroth and others I determined that the harness was safe to use and the seat would function properly with the shoulder harnesses.

The problem came in that the sanctioning bodies couldn't give a definitive answer on whether they were going to allow this.

The general answer was "Stock seats (regardless of factory pass thru) = Stock 3 point belts, PERIOD." Also, a blanket "No 4 point harnesses, regardless of whether they were safe or designed properly to not cause submarining"

Harnesses = Race seats properly mounted.

 

I decided to spend the $3000 on seats, harnesses, mounts, harness bar and a Hans device.

The one thing I don't like about this decision is that it adds about 2 - 3 hours to my prep time before heading to the track and another 2 - 3 hours to my time to turn it back into a street car. Expense aside, I was hoping to be safer at the track without turning every weekend into a thrash in order to convert my daily use car into a HPDE car.

Some of my original reasons for doing this are:

- I didn't feel the factory 3 point would provide adequate protection if I got into trouble on the track.

- I wanted to use a head and neck restraint system for better protection in case of an incident.

- I thought it would be safer and help provide better car control if I didn't have to be sliding around in my seat.

 

After many weeks of research, discussions with race teams, discussions with harness manufactures and seat manufactures, I agree that safety is a system. All the pieces must work together properly in order to provide the safety they were designed for. The problem is that most people pick and choose pieces and assemble their own system which may or may not provide adequate safety. When it comes to race cars there are a few places to go to get proven and tested data as to what does (tested, due to others experience) or will work.

When it comes to make a street car safer for HPDE or TT there is nothing! Basically some cars will benefit from safety upgrades and others won't. The determining factor won't be discovered until after the incident! With that being the case it is hard to make a wise decision on where to invest your hard earned cash in safety equipment.

The other part of the problem is that, even if you invest in the "proper" equipment, a lot of the time there are compromises made during the install in order to keep the car "stock" or at least put it back to a certain level.

Many models of cars run at the tracks don't have "specific" safety equipment made for them and by nature these require modifications to the car or equipment, all of which could cause a compromise in the integrity of the "system"

 

I ended up buying (2) Cobra (Suzuka and Imola) FIA approved seats, Hans, (2) Schroth Profi 2 6H harnesses, HardBar harness bar (specifically made for C5 corvette and tested(ask Gary how he knows))

 

Seats because they were known to work in the C5, used by many race teams and lighter weight which made it easier to swap in and out each weekend. (Added bonus, VERY comfortable at the track and to and from) I would use them for daily driving but it makes getting in and out difficult. I didn't use sliders because they would seriously compromise the integrity of the "system"

Hans - It goes without saying, the best H & N restraint system out there. There are many places on the web to see independent testing on the major H & N systems out there.

 

Profi 2 6H belts

- 1st they are designed for use with the Hans, 3" to 2" shoulder harnesses in order to lay on the Hans properly, always.

2nd - 2" lap belt which fits the human pelvis better and also allows you to cinch the lap belt tighter which means your pelvis has less opportunity to pick up momentum and the belt will stretch less before it stops your forward movement. It also holds you in the seat better, allowing less side to side movement. A 3" lap belt sits on the high points of the pelvis and under severe pressure can break the bone. Did you know that in a 35 MPH head on crash the impact could cause 70 g's of force? In a street car, all that force wouldn't be transferred to your body due to the "crumple zones" and the way the chassis of the car was designed to absorb the impact. The human body can withstand about 110 - 130 g's depending on how fit you are.

 

HardBar Harness bar, because it provides plenty of strength for mounting shoulder harnesses, is below and behind your head so there isn't much chance of hitting your head on the street and as an added bonus it provides added strength in case of a side impact.

I wish there was an easy way to know what is good and what is marketing hype, what REALLY works and what doesn't and what is the proper way to install things in a particular model of car. It would be nice if there was a way to get "Known good information" in one spot. It is very hard to sift through all the opinions, marketing hype and flat out BS that exists on the web. I also found that some race car drivers who have been doing it for years had been doing it WRONG for years. Fortunately I was able to find enough concrete data regarding my car in order to make an informed decision but it wasn't easy!

 

Constructive criticism and corrections welcome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ev
Seeing as I started this in order to gain some input and direction, I thought I would fill you in on what I decided and some of the reasons.

My original question had 2 points, Can I use the stock seats with the factory shoulder harness pass thru's and a Schroth 4 point harness which is designed to not cause submarining. Nobody was really able to give a clear answer to this. After discussions with Schroth and others I determined that the harness was safe to use and the seat would function properly with the shoulder harnesses.

The problem came in that the sanctioning bodies couldn't give a definitive answer on whether they were going to allow this.

The general answer was "Stock seats (regardless of factory pass thru) = Stock 3 point belts, PERIOD." Also, a blanket "No 4 point harnesses, regardless of whether they were safe or designed properly to not cause submarining"

Harnesses = Race seats properly mounted.

 

I decided to spend the $3000 on seats, harnesses, mounts, harness bar and a Hans device.

The one thing I don't like about this decision is that it adds about 2 - 3 hours to my prep time before heading to the track and another 2 - 3 hours to my time to turn it back into a street car. Expense aside, I was hoping to be safer at the track without turning every weekend into a thrash in order to convert my daily use car into a HPDE car.

Some of my original reasons for doing this are:

- I didn't feel the factory 3 point would provide adequate protection if I got into trouble on the track.

- I wanted to use a head and neck restraint system for better protection in case of an incident.

- I thought it would be safer and help provide better car control if I didn't have to be sliding around in my seat.

 

After many weeks of research, discussions with race teams, discussions with harness manufactures and seat manufactures, I agree that safety is a system. All the pieces must work together properly in order to provide the safety they were designed for. The problem is that most people pick and choose pieces and assemble their own system which may or may not provide adequate safety. When it comes to race cars there are a few places to go to get proven and tested data as to what does (tested, due to others experience) or will work.

When it comes to make a street car safer for HPDE or TT there is nothing! Basically some cars will benefit from safety upgrades and others won't. The determining factor won't be discovered until after the incident! With that being the case it is hard to make a wise decision on where to invest your hard earned cash in safety equipment.

The other part of the problem is that, even if you invest in the "proper" equipment, a lot of the time there are compromises made during the install in order to keep the car "stock" or at least put it back to a certain level.

Many models of cars run at the tracks don't have "specific" safety equipment made for them and by nature these require modifications to the car or equipment, all of which could cause a compromise in the integrity of the "system"

 

I ended up buying (2) Cobra (Suzuka and Imola) FIA approved seats, Hans, (2) Schroth Profi 2 6H harnesses, HardBar harness bar (specifically made for C5 corvette and tested(ask Gary how he knows))

 

Seats because they were known to work in the C5, used by many race teams and lighter weight which made it easier to swap in and out each weekend. (Added bonus, VERY comfortable at the track and to and from) I would use them for daily driving but it makes getting in and out difficult. I didn't use sliders because they would seriously compromise the integrity of the "system"

Hans - It goes without saying, the best H & N restraint system out there. There are many places on the web to see independent testing on the major H & N systems out there.

 

Profi 2 6H belts

- 1st they are designed for use with the Hans, 3" to 2" shoulder harnesses in order to lay on the Hans properly, always.

2nd - 2" lap belt which fits the human pelvis better and also allows you to cinch the lap belt tighter which means your pelvis has less opportunity to pick up momentum and the belt will stretch less before it stops your forward movement. It also holds you in the seat better, allowing less side to side movement. A 3" lap belt sits on the high points of the pelvis and under severe pressure can break the bone. Did you know that in a 35 MPH head on crash the impact could cause 70 g's of force? In a street car, all that force wouldn't be transferred to your body due to the "crumple zones" and the way the chassis of the car was designed to absorb the impact. The human body can withstand about 110 - 130 g's depending on how fit you are.

 

HardBar Harness bar, because it provides plenty of strength for mounting shoulder harnesses, is below and behind your head so there isn't much chance of hitting your head on the street and as an added bonus it provides added strength in case of a side impact.

I wish there was an easy way to know what is good and what is marketing hype, what REALLY works and what doesn't and what is the proper way to install things in a particular model of car. It would be nice if there was a way to get "Known good information" in one spot. It is very hard to sift through all the opinions, marketing hype and flat out BS that exists on the web. I also found that some race car drivers who have been doing it for years had been doing it WRONG for years. Fortunately I was able to find enough concrete data regarding my car in order to make an informed decision but it wasn't easy!

 

Constructive criticism and corrections welcome.

The only thing I see missing from your setup is the roll over protection. I haven't seen a roll over in HPDE, but I have heard of one. I have seen several rollovers in race cars, including one that cracked the roll cage.

 

Without rollover protection, you become the roll bar should you car go wheels up. Your bolt upright positioning solidly locked in by your seat and belts becomes the vertical high point in the event of a roll over. You have the right idea, but one of the legs of the stool is missing (roll bar). Problem is, you want to drive it on the street. Have you ever thought of abandoning the C5 for HPDE and going with a dedicated track car? Spec Miatas are fun, safe and cheap (though not as sexy as a C5).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...