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Need Help with New rules for HPDE Harnesses and Seatbelts?

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Bruce L.

just read through some of the old posts ...

For the ones where they said people were using 4pt harnesses plus the 3 pt stock belts in the passenger seat - that isn't going to help with stopping submarining. The stock 3pt is designed to let your body fold in half forward and that is what prevents the submarining. A 4pt holds your torso upright and it can then slide down and under the lap belt as it rides up due to not having a 5th strap. Schroth 4pts with ASM (Anti submarining mechanism) releases one of the harness belts a bit (only works in some cars) such that your torso twists and that stops you from going down under the lap belt.

cheers,

bruce

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nasaregistrar

Just in case anyone is intending to use a 4 point belt system in the MA region, the Chief of compliance has ruled that this does not meet the CCR and is NOT approved in the MA region.

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STRINGER
NorrFam wrote:

sliding on leather seats is greatly abated by a $3.99 trip to WalMart and getting a roll of the rubbery shelf liner in the kitchen department. Reusable, doesnt let your butt wiggle and cheap to boot.

 

I wish that would work. But, see, I weigh about 145. I have a 28" waist. There is no way that rubbery shelf liner is going to help me stay in my stock seat...

 

Work for most, not for all of us.

 

With all due respect of course. I weigh 145 and it does work. BUT, I will say that you would need a CGLock to help keep your lower body roll over at a minimum. I did a test of the CGLock and found it was a great tool for cheap.

 

Even in a harness in NorrFam's car, my butt still slid on the seat. Would not have if I had of had the rubber shelf liner...or the tool box rubber drawer inserts that do pretty much the same thing. I keep a piece of that handy if I ever need it.

 

 

Now, other cars have bigger problems with this. I have seen some Corvettes with OEM seats and shoulder harnesses, but the headrests are integral with the seat backs, and there are no openings in the seat backs to slide the shoulder harnesses through. These guys usually just bring the belts around the narrower upper part of the seat back, and down over their shoulders. But, if you look at the shoulder harnesses when a person is strapped into the car, the harnesses angle excessively outward as they go up the chest and over the shoulders...very bad news, since it appears very easy to slide out from under one or both shoulder harnesses with sideways forces.

 

I did this very same thing in my first couple of HPDE events. For one it is not something I would tell anyone to do. For another...if your planning on a HANS...don't do it as it would defeat the protection I would imagine. What I did find out is that I left each event with very sore shoulders due to the belts being angled over my shoulders and digging in making sore spots.

 

What I did was to cut my seats to run the belts through the seat. Still not the best solution, but better then the other IMHO. The problem with all of this is the fact that all the pressure is on the stock seat back. If you get into an incident and the seat breaks...what happens? Your nice 6 point harness shoulder belts are useless and you get to flop around. Not to mention the point that the Hans is only good if the harness system is in place and working. So I believe anyway.

 

The more I think about things....the more I have to agree with NASA rulings. If you have stock seats...stay with stock belts and get a CGLock. If you have a 5 or 6 point harness....get the FIA approved seat with shoulder support and a head halo. I have an Ultrashield racing seat without this, a seat back brace and a right side head net and still know I don't have the protection I would like to have.

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Rook

Maybe I'm being foolish by suggesting this...

 

Believing that I understand the intent of HPDE...is there concern that there may come a point where the minimum safety requirements (or costs associated) begin to impede too much on practicality?

 

An extreme of what I'm talking about would be someone getting injured in a rollover, and full cages being required for HPDE as a result. It's not practical for everyone to have a second track car, nor is it practical for everyone to have a full cage in their DD. I think this would lead a lot of people away from HPDE.

 

I understand this is sensitive, and I intend no offense to anyone, but I felt it relative to the coversation at hand. Having dealt with situations akin to this often in my career, I've learned this for certain: Where risk-associated ventures are concerned, there's always a fine line between mitigation of risk and total elimination of value.

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dbright007

Valid question. I can't drive Barber in my convertible until I decide to go with seats/harnesses. But I won't make that change until I can do it correctly.

I think alot of what I read in this relates to changes to the stock safety setup in a car. I agree HPDE would be shooting itself in the foot to require DE1-4 to have anything greater than stock safety equipment (except perhaps in convertibles requiring a roll bar).

 

 

Most of what is in the CCR (and I see being debated here) is if you are going to start making changes to stock - the package you put in needs to all work together. And that to me is perfectly acceptable for NASA to expect. They can allow for incremental changes, but certain parts need work in tandem.

Starting to change seats or belts or whatever without having all the correct parts is defeating the purpose.

 

I don't see the requirements on DE seriously changing until TT is put to scrutiny first.

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kbrew8991

DE and TT are tied together as far as safety rules as far as I know - one won't change without the other changing

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Robnie0723

Does anyone track deaths/serious injuries relative to; racing vs. TT vs. DE?

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dbright007
DE and TT are tied together as far as safety rules as far as I know - one won't change without the other changing

 

They basically seem to be at this point. But looking to the future - do you see it staying that closely related if they begin to require Seat/Harnesses/HNR in TT?

Some of the TT track records over that last 18 months have really taken a big drop. I have only been around Nasa about that long and TT is a different animal.

Congrats to guys like you and Jeff that have really helped build it - but TT is now getting to a point where it is a much more serious endeavor than it was. And that is good thing. So I can see where Nasa might want to add stricter safety equip guidelines.

But to me - DE is still a horse of different color especially at the 1/2 level.

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kbrew8991

thats a good Greg Greenbaum/Jerry Kunzman question

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