GWalker Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 You guys and gals know I never post anything here hardly at all, but I have a discussion idea I think may warrant some thought. Let me qualify this by saying I love Toyo. Good sponsor, good tire on the pocket book and I like the even playing field it provides. But after spending nearly an entire weekend in the rain at Mid Ohio, and by watching the Miller Cup guys lap me after only 3 laps because they were on real rain tires, I have to ask, is there anything we can do differently about the spec tire in the rain? A Toyo rain tire is a basic tire that isn't shaved, right? It just seemed a little boring for the one spectator standing in the rain watching us fumble around the track. I just don't think this tire is good enough for American Iron in the rain. And when you watch a real rain tire work and how much water it throws out compared to our "rain tire", there is no comparison. Honestly, I think I could have turned better times in my Chevy Suburban. Am I a lone horse here or does anyone else wish we had a real rain tire? Thanks for listening to me wine and be nice with your replies, especially Jeff Feit. Greg Walker #78 American Iron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 I found that in *normal* temperatures, the Toyos weren't too bad in the rain. Then again, I've never had anything to compare them to so the maybe the Miller Cup guys provided a better education. One part of me says yeah, let's let some proper rains in and another part of me likes the idea that in a pinch, I have the option to shave my rains and viola I have dries. Sorry, not much tech. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmy70go Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 You're right Greg, I was behind you for a while on the start but we Iron guys were'nt throwing near the water as the miller guys. My Toyo's were brand new at 4/32 and I too made the comment that the truck would have been faster. I was too bullheaded to get a set of unshaved, but I think with the water only a boat would have been better. Todd Rogers AI 60 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevepoe Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 (edited) Hey Greg, nice to meet you this weekend. Curious, how much is that 18" hoosier rain tire? This is a dead horse as nothing is going to change but ? Maybe the new toyo R888 tire will be better. for me ,I thought the full tread ra1 was pretty good and for the $189 each. I bet those hoosiers are twice as much. keep in mind those guys where running abs as well. I agree it is a better tire but at what cost ? I bet those guys are running on over six figure budget for the year of racing . I'm collecting aluminum cans to pay for gas. Edited April 14, 2008 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Horse Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 I think to even the field, anyone that isn't on Toyo's (shaved or not) should have to run in reverse the entire race...that should make the spectators happy....besides, most of the AI guys were going backwards at some point in time anyway - sounds fair enough to me. Seriously - I don't see where it matters, all of the AI class has the same options (or lack thereof) and the field is equal - if the AIX/Miller guys are able to go faster, so what, we'll just be in their way more often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 Seriously - I don't see where it matters, all of the AI class has the same options (or lack thereof) and the field is equal - if the AIX/Miller guys are able to go faster, so what, we'll just be in their way more often. x2. I have had my fair share of time on RA1's in the wet, mostly less than 3/32 and some flat ass bald. I like them to a point but you MUST learn to drive a wet line. Only time I have had a real problem is if there is standing water on the track and at that point a full tread would probably be ideal, however I have never been able to afford/try it. As for the R888, personally, from the looks of the tread pattern, I feel it will be MUCH worse than a full tread RA1, but might be better than a shaved or bald RA1...? Any idea at what tread depth the R$$$ becomes a full slick? As for dedicated rains for AI...don't like that idea because the entire field should be equally "handicapped"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snakebit Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 Just an outsider looking in here....hope to be running CMC sometime in the not so distant future. Can you regroove the tread on your rains? Looks like a couple of grooves around the circumference might help. I agree that R888 tread looks pretty bad for wet conditions. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWalker Posted April 14, 2008 Author Share Posted April 14, 2008 I guess what I am saying is I just felt very unsafe on these tires. I won Saturday and Sunday because I survived, not because I was fast. I think that is why a lot of AI people didn't even show up this weekend or why some of them who were at track didn't go out was because we aren't providing safe enough tires in the rain. I have no interest in running down a Miller Cup car or AIX car, rain or dry. I am just looking for something safer. I know the wet line, but that doesn't help you when you hydro plane down the straight away at 110 MPH. Even a regular Mustang DOT cheap daily driver tire would be better. As far as cost, one set of rains should last a season or more, right? I just think it isn't safe fellows. I have had plenty of time in the rain with lots of cars and I have never felt so out of control at Mid Ohio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 If you were on the track with Rehagen Racing Miller Cup Cars(pictured below), they were running Hoosier wets. We ran Toyo R888's unshaved and it was very uncomfortable. I have a lot of questions about the viability of the new toyo in the rain. BTW...rain racing has officially been eliminated from our program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micks 41 Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 The Miller guys didn't fair much better. Out of the 3 that showed, I think only one made it through the weekend unscathed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 How was it that they were scathed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 oh boy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 crashed, broke? scratched, dented? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micks 41 Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 I don't like to give out details of other peoples misfortunes. One of drivers, crew, or some close to the team may care to chime in to prevent any inaccuracies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff F Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 If you were on the track with Rehagen Racing Miller Cup Cars(pictured below), they were running Hoosier wets.No, they weren't. Geez, you weren't even there.crashed, broke? scratched, dented?All of the above. x2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 Wow...sounds like a few drivers need to be taught that old adage that to finish first...you must first finish. AI drivers who are used to manhandling their cars around with downforce need to remember SMOOTH inputs in the rain regardless of tire selection. Thankfully we don't see THAT many rain sessions but I have had over 4 hours of wet/rain sessions just this year alone and it's only April! Previous 3 years I had maybe 40 minutes. Safety on the tires we use is one thing but driver decisions/skills play more of a roll in how well the tire works in my opinion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 No...you are right I was not there. I was at Road Atlanta with those cats and they were running Hoosier Grand Am Cup Wets. 275's. They may have been using the BFG street tire which is their spec rains for the series at Mid Ohio, but I suspect they were still using the Hoosiers. I could be wrong of course. I just know what they were doing a month ago. I also saw the description of how they were plowing water and it sounds a lot more like the Hoosier 275 wets than the BFG 245 wide streets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tornado Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 The Toyo's at full tread are decent but they are directional then. Did you run them at full tread and correct direction?? That 8/32's works well as intermediate rain. Hoosiers they run are full rain tires and are amazing. Look at the tread blocks and pattern and depth and you will see why they work so much better. Those tires can be run on dirt tracks if I recall. As for the new R888's all I can say is look what happened to Robb in the rain and then the Sebring World Challenge race was a total joke so don't hold your breathe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 The Miller cars I saw running in the rain-soaked enduro on Sat. were definitely running Hoosiers; I don't know what they were running in the sprint races, but one of them ended up in the tire wall in the keyhole on Sunday. I have not even seen an R888 in person yet, but if they are as bad as is being claimed here, it makes the issue of a dedicated rain tire even more important. Having hydro-planed off the track into walls at Mid Ohio and Road America on slick Toyos, I'll be the first to suggest that it is good insurance to keep a set of full treads in the trailer. It would have been cheaper than the repair bills! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWalker Posted April 15, 2008 Author Share Posted April 15, 2008 Although rain driving advice is appreciated I'm sure for some, but I'm asking if it is possible to create a better rain tire for our series that is cost effecient, safer and more fun to watch. This R888 deal is giving me the creeps and we need to look at it now. I'm telling you someone is going to end up getting hurt if we have a crap rain tire next year. Those of you that weren't at Mid Ohio, you need to understand it was A LOT of rain. The track was totally covered all day Sunday. That is the scenerio I am talking about fixing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 Although rain driving advice is appreciated I'm sure for some, but I'm asking if it is possible to create a better rain tire for our series that is cost effecient, safer and more fun to watch. This R888 deal is giving me the creeps and we need to look at it now. I'm telling you someone is going to end up getting hurt if we have a crap rain tire next year.Those of you that weren't at Mid Ohio, you need to understand it was A LOT of rain. The track was totally covered all day Sunday. That is the scenerio I am talking about fixing. Well, I am going to bite my tongue on the pictures Bob posted....that wasn't a tire problem... If you are running in a pack of cars at the same speed in the rain and the same tires and they make it through and you don't....that ain't tires...it's driver error. Rain races aren't fun, they don't have great passing or racing action regardless of what tire you are on. As the track dries, there are some opportunities for passing but you aren't going to see a lot of door to door racing action in the rain. Developing a "special" tire isn't the answer. Keeping your head as a driver and surviving by driving to the conditions is the key to finishing and MAYBE winning a rain race. Rain racing just sucks and it IS survival of the most patient. Also, there is just as much chance to get hurt in a dry race as there is in a rain race...if not more. We as drivers need to be smart and drive like professionals...not someone looking to set a blistering lap record in the rain with a special tire...there is a reason nobody cares about lap records in the rain! As for running a race in "A LOT" of rain...sounds like race control needed to make the call and red flag the race. Don't forget the WC race last year that collected a ton of cars on RA1's... If it's raining too hard, pull the car off or stop the race...you do have a choice to slow down or bring the car home in one piece. The R$$$ might be a terrible tire in the rain but I don't see Toyo spending Millions to develop a new tire or NASA allowing us to run something else anytime soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 The only additional suggestion I would make to the above is to consider allowing the full-tread RA-1s to carry over as an alternative rain tire. A lot of people already have 700-800 bucks tied up in a set of tires they rarely use, so let them keep those rather than have to purchase a second set of R888s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 AI97: ease off on your tongue. its not good for you. the crash pictured was a result of touching the painted line as best we could figure out. that really doesnt fix what the driver called every corner being a controlled crash. he is a world challenge experienced driver and not a novice. Keeping the RA1 as the rain tire is not an option as they will disappear as soon as the R888 is fully integrated into the market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevepoe Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 I for one would love to see the ra1 in full tread be allowed for rain use only in 2009 . Do I think it's going to happen ? NO. I will probably end up having them shaven down at the end of the season and using them for practice tires in 2009 I need to purchase another set of rains and seriously considering going ahead and getting the r888 for this year and running AIX If I get put in that situation for this year and that really sucks. How much are those hoosier rains in a 18" . I looked, but couldn't dig up pricing ? Honestly, If your that worried about it . DON'T RUN. That does suck since you came to race though . Another option would be to get the rain tire you like and jump into AIX if it's raining and your put in that situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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