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ABS and TC


mwilson7

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Doesn't allowing only a portion of the vehicle in AI to use ABS and Traction Control put them at a significant advantage vs those cars that didn't come factory equipped with the system? The newer ABS and TC systems are a form of yaw control which would eliminate any chance of spining a car either.

 

Any thoughts by the group?

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I think that ABS and traction control are both potential advantages. But there are many advantages and disadvantages for any given car model/year/trim level and this is just another potential plus for a specific car (IRS for certain Mustangs is another example of this).

 

My current car had the ABS removed by a previous owner and I miss it dearly. All of my previous seat time had been with ABS and I used to be able to brake like a caveman and now I have to be careful about lockup...

 

Anyway, I think the advantage of traction control can be iffy based on how intrusive it can be. My instincts are that (if I had it) I would end up disabling it unless it was an excellent system. At least with the f-body system that I tried, it slowed me down in autocross...

 

Are you looking to see a rule change to permit ABS/TC to be an "open" item? I would support that, but I probably wouldn't go that way for a few years. There are some more fundamental things that need fixed on my car first.

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I wouldn't worry about it much; ABS can help the rank inexperienced driver, but it's really just not dialed in for race suspensions and race tires, so it would be more of a disadvantage at this level of prep. If you were in Showroom Stock configuration on stock tires, that'd be one thing, but not here. We've been having the same discussion over on improvedtouring.com (about whether or not ABS should be allowed). As for yaw control functions, there are some such, but they're only a CYA, and not even as effective as full stability control... still only helpful to a novice driver.

 

Though I have to admit, as owner of a non-ABS-equipped car, I sometimes have to be careful who I hand over the keys to - once had a PCA club racer as a co-driver, who was used to relying on his 951's ABS, COMPLETELY flatten the tires like an absolute idiot (which he was, coincidentally) waiting for the ABS to kick in during an autocross... this in a '79 924! Whadda Maroon... Good thing I didn't give him any good tires.

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Oh, yeah - TCS, no help for the track. Usually not even tuned for track use; if it is, it's only to not get in the way. Wanna be fast out of the corners, get yourself a diff. Put torque where it's needed, don't take it away.

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I disagree, it's an advantage. Maybe not in all straight line braking zones, but in some off camber or braking during a slight corner it helps. I have flatspotted tires in turn 7 at Blackhawk in the right rear, were it is real light due to a slight right hand bend and off-camber in the braking zone. My competition in the ABS cars kill me there, but not in most straight line braking zones. I don't know about you, but it's a $300 mistake flatspotting a tire, double if you lock up two. Tell me that doesn't affect your driving, and I'll call you a liar.

 

Why don't we just do what every other series does, add 100 pounds of weight to the ABS cars. I know it won't help AIX because no one is even close to minimum weight (that I know of), but it should help even out AI & CMC a bit.

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I guess it would be interesting to learn -

 

How many of us are running ABS and TC today?

 

I've got neither and have the flatspotted tires to prove it.

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Or they could just open up the rules like F1 did because it's too hard to figure out who is running traction control. ABS should be easy enough to find.

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I know it won't help AIX because no one is even close to minimum weight (that I know of), but it should help even out AI & CMC a bit.

 

Just for clarification, ABS is not allowed in CMC. Cars that are equipped with it from the factory must disable or remove it.

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I had a student at Talladega (and Dennis Tone had him at Road Atlanta) who added SN95 ABS to an 89 Mustang, worked great! Which he added from a junkyard car for less money than a good carburetor. And YES, he was going deeper than I thought possible AND trailbraking when I would've spun in my '86.

 

According to AI rules ANY aftermarket option is available, so why rule out ABS? If you are going to eliminate ABS, then why not require carburetors? LOL! You would be forcing AI back into the stone age!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(the above statements are just my opinion and I am sure the engineers from ford will disagree! LOL!)

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I have a 99 Cobra, and I NEVER turn the TC on. For any good driver, it will slow them down, especially in good weather. In rain, it would also slow them down. The system if VERY sensitive, overly sensitive.

ABS however, is a positive. The series must allow for this as more and more cars will have ABS moving forward. No choice really. Plus it is safer....

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I'm inclined to agree about the traction control. I never use it on track. It's annoying more than anything else. The all-or-none throttle when it engages and disengages is certainly not helpful. Now, ABS could be useful. Depends on the driver. Personally I would rather become a great braker without ABS. Then you know you can drive anything. Speaking soley in terms of AI and AIX, you can retro fit a non-ABS car with the system. Nothing is preventing racers from doing that so I say just let those who have it continue on.

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I had a student at Talladega (and Dennis Tone had him at Road Atlanta) who added SN95 ABS to an 89 Mustang, worked great! Which he added from a junkyard car for less money than a good carburetor. And YES, he was going deeper than I thought possible AND trailbraking when I would've spun in my '86.

 

According to AI rules ANY aftermarket option is available, so why rule out ABS? If you are going to eliminate ABS, then why not require carburetors? LOL! You would be forcing AI back into the stone age!

 

(the above statements are just my opinion and I am sure the engineers from ford will disagree! LOL!)

 

Where are you reading that ANY aftermarket option is available?

 

The rules reads "Anti-lock brake systems are prohibited except for an unmodified OEM system, which includes ABS valve body and electronics delivered from the factory. Calipers are unrestricted."

 

How is someone with a 68 Mustang supposed to comply with this rule? How is NASA supposed to police this rule to make sure that all of the parts are OEM including the electronics?

 

I'm not arguing that ABS isn't safer, but it just appears that it offers a distinct competitive advantage as you guys have stated above.

 

Reason I asked this was that I met someone with a 67 Shelby clone that was thinking of running AI and he was trying to understand how he would be competitive with this rule. He also has a new Cobra and completely understands how much better the cars braking is with ABS.

 

Since I'm bringing it up he also asked why only factory aluminum blocks were allowed as this would give certain vehicles a distinct 40-50 lbs off the front ends. I said it was based on cost (I guess). Anyone know the real reason?

 

P.S. V8cobra99 - got any pictures of your car? I was reading about it in another post and it sounds pretty cool!

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I think Jim meant that any other aftermarket option was legal, such as supsension.

 

The only Ford V8 with a factory aluminium block is the 96-2001 Cobra, and the 2003-04 Mach 1. Don't try to tell me that they have a front end weight advantage.

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I personally think that ABS is a disadvantage to those that don't have it. I also think that it takes away a bit of talent that is needed to go fast. Anyone can go barrelling into T5 at summit point for instance, and simply push the pedal as hard as they can to engage the ABS and turn the corner but I like the idea of having the driver having to pucker up and make it happen. I would rather see that 'car control' put back into the drivers hands (or feet) and take away the computer control.

 

I don't care about traction control as I personally think it slows you down, but ABS is an advantage that all cars do not have the option of running, since it does have to be OEM.

 

Respectfully,

 

Brian P. Tone

I am Brian P. Tone and I approved this message

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That about the GM aluminum block?

 

According to the GM F-Body LS1 manual, the change from LT1 (iron block) to LS1 (aluminum block) that happened in 1998 removed 140 total pounds from the nose of the car. The manual does not detail exactly where this 140 lbs comes from and it sounds excessive to me. Having owned both, beyond the motor itself, I have noticed the following other differences between the two "types":

 

1) The water pump runs off the camshaft in the LT1 and the water pump runs off the serpentine belt on the LS1. I like the LT1 setup better - you throw a belt and you only lose the alternator and the power steering.

2) The LT1's came stock with single-piston brake calipers and the LS1's came stock with dual-piston brake calipers.

3) The LT1's have a remote PS reservior and the LS1 reservior and pump are in a compact unit mounted on the front of the motor.

4) The LT1's came with an Optispark system with "centralized" coil bits. The LS1's have a coil pack installed above each spark plug.

5) The LT1 has an aluminum, comparatively bulky intake and the LS1 has a "plasticy", relatively compact intake. I don't actually know the material composition of the LS1 intake, but it is almost plastic...

 

However, the LS1 cars and LT1 cars don't weigh signficantly different. I have never been able to understand this.

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It would be much simpler if the rule was standardized one way or the other completely, rather the current "only if factory equipped" rule. IMHO, ABS and TC are against the "spirit" of the class. My understanding was that the power-weight ratio, tire limit, etc were done to make it more of a driver's class. As mentioned before, the "pucker factor" of how deep you are prepared to go into a braking zone is part of what makes this type of racing fun and competitive.

 

...not to mention it's only a matter of time before someone "tunes" the factory TC and ABS module for a serious on-track advantage with stock appearance. The best way to police this would be to eliminate it.

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You got it Greg! I know of one team running in a professional series who uses the factory ABS parts but the electronics are tuned and the ABS works quite a bit better with aftermarket 4 piston calipers now. It's not something that could be found going through tech.

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How many people are currently using ABS? If the number is low then the chances banning it would be greater. If there is a substantial amount then there should be a petion allowing all cars the option. I for one agree with both Brian and Greg for essentially the same reasons they pointed out, It seems that it takes to much skill away from the driver. Where as a better (or fearless) driver would be able to go deeper into the braking zone without ABS, a more novice driver can repeat it without the "fear" involved. It simply doesn't seem as much fun.

 

Just my 2 cents.

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I said it before but I'll mention it again. Quanitfy the advantage with weight so no one has to butcher their cars if they choose not to. Speed World Challenge Series adds 100 pounds to ABS equipped cars FWIW. Most drivers say take out the ABS and get the weight down, but some say the opposite. Looks like a pretty good number (100 pounds) if there is disagreement whether or not to run ABS in World Challenge.

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You could also make the case for EFI, better throttle response, more control over the power curve, repeatability, etc. Why not ban everything that is new and improved and go back to stone age carburetion? (j/k)

 

If you are going to spend $10k on suspension mods, why not $500 on ABS? Both take the same effort to install?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(these are just my opinions as a racer and I am sure there are some Ford Engineers that will dispute it)

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MWilson7 - I am not sure how I can post them up as a link. But I will be happy to send anyone current pics. I have JBA Racing installing the Canton oil pan and IRS urethane bushings on the car now as well.

 

Email me if you want the pics.

Andy Bowman [email protected]

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