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Why mix HPDE 1 & HPDE 2?

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dbright007
Thanks but I thought I was enjoying myself only to find out I was just making others cringe. I can bet you that if others get the same instruction I got. they would be progressing quicker too. Did not knoe Reese could teach so much in that time for me to be in so much trouble.

 

I don't think the point was that you were doing anything wrong. It think the point all along was that mixing DE1 and 2 is not an optimal situation. My car will break 110 if I drive it off a cliff, but I am fine with you and the viper, etc. I gotta keep my eyes open and watching the rearview, but having high hp cars and low hp cars is all part of the learning process in DE2.

 

Most first time DE1 guys are not really ready to deal with really fast cars/drivers. Imagine you now on a track with you the first time out.

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CaspersZ06
Thanks but I thought I was enjoying myself only to find out I was just making others cringe. I can bet you that if others get the same instruction I got. they would be progressing quicker too. Did not knoe Reese could teach so much in that time for me to be in so much trouble.

 

I don't think the point was that you were doing anything wrong. It think the point all along was that mixing DE1 and 2 is not an optimal situation. My car will break 110 if I drive it off a cliff, but I am fine with you and the viper, etc. I gotta keep my eyes open and watching the rearview, but having high hp cars and low hp cars is all part of the learning process in DE2.

 

Most first time DE1 guys are not really ready to deal with really fast cars/drivers. Imagine you now on a track with you the first time out.

 

I remember all to well. And after reading all the comments it bought back those memories. It was in March of this year when the tornado hit Atlanta. I was in the same car with the same setup and everybody did me the same way so it's not the car. And I'm sure I will experience it again. It was the time I had at talladega learning about the car and it's ability. It was detuned for this track event because Reese knew I would push it. I'm glad he limited the power else I would have probably been banned that day for pushing that car or scared myself into scubbing the whole weekend and renting talladega to play with just 3 or less people. I have no idea what that car can do. And after 20 years as a researcher with NASA Langley Research Center in Flight/Materials Research; I am/was in 'Test Pilot' mode and simply want to 'know' the limits of me and that car...but slowly and safely. So if there are any instructors with a Z06 who'll be at Barber Sept 13 & 14 let me know so I can get a second voice in my head - a 'Safety Pilot' if you will to keep me grounded while pushing slowly to the limit.

 

It's alot of fun and I had a blast but people saying I scared them takes the fun out of it.

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dbright007

I understand where you are coming from.

I saw where it was mentioned you were running sub-1:30?

If that is the case, you need to go to the SE section here and talk to Varkswo (aka Mr Englund- time trial director and vette driver) and the Pattons (HPDE dir's).

If you're 9 secs faster than a TTA Z06's track record and are in Unlimited range (closing on Reese's times), then they do need to get your grouping situated and get you safely into a faster group.

1:30 is insane fast!

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Bruce L.

if you don't get the point-by out in time to let a high-speed car by, they just slow down and wait for your point-by - no biggie. I think you're worrying to much about the other cars. You need to be respectful of others on the track, but not to the point of distraction or intimidation.

 

I like your suggestion for parade laps but the newbies can't miss the driver's meeting.

thanks,

bruce

 

 

I don't believe he said anything about DE2 drivers being too aggressive.

He commented on the unsafety of different speeds, which I think speaks to the unpredictablility of new drivers. I don't care if a new DE1 is in a vette and faster than my miata. I just want him to be predictable!

 

Thanks for clarifying my point. Having just completed my first year, my experience was similar to firebirdman. Most beginners need a chance to get settled in trying to learn the car, track and much less remember where, when and which sided to give a point to a car closing at a high rate of speed.

 

I've wondered if it could be possible to at least send first timers out for touring laps behind a pace car at street speeds while the drivers meeting is taking place. The lunch touring laps were a big help for me at first. I would not recommend an average first timer start in a mixed HPDE 1/2 group. Find an organization that still keeps beginners separate the few times out.

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Firebird Man

I'm not digging on anyone in particular, my view of the original question is when safety seems to be the first priority for everyone is that it's just nuts to put first timers out at speed with much faster cars for our first session. Give first timers 1-2 sessions to get familiar with the whole process.

Car, track, instructor, speed, turns, braking zones, flag stands, elevation changes, blind turns, etc... it's all new and different. At least I can now say "it was new and different"

 

After Saturdays second session I was fine, sounds like most of the first timers had the same experience. The first session was pretty hairy, there is no way you cannot think about the car behind you, it's our first time out, you can't turn off 30+ years of street driving experience in an instant after 1 class room session.

 

Sunday I was passed going into turn 1 at speed by a faster no instructor car 3 cars back with no point by, had I not seen him pop out of line I would have turned right into him, it would have been nasty. (He should have gotten a black flag)

Mirrors and awareness was what I got highest marks on in my log book. I want to know what's coming as well as what's in front.

 

I guess in a way is was like a freshman hazing, we got the brunt end of a hairy situation but came out unscathed.

Overall I think the entire event at RA was great, I'm also involved in tournament waterskiing so I know the dedication it takes from voluneers to put on an event. Thumbs up to all the workers.

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dbright007

Just a suggestion to get suggestions heard..

Other than MA - I am not sure many of the regional folks check these threads in this section- so may not be aware of the thoughts and comments. I know most of the SE banter is in the SE section.

 

(I would not surprise me that I am wrong) but just saying some of the better ideas and thoughts that develop here might get better notice in whatever specific region. Am sure Jim in the Southeast would be interested - as has been noted they put on a great event and are willing to listen.

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Varkwso
Thanks but I thought I was enjoying myself only to find out I was just making others cringe. I can bet you that if others get the same instruction I got. they would be progressing quicker too. Did not knoe Reese could teach so much in that time for me to be in so much trouble.

 

I don't think the point was that you were doing anything wrong. It think the point all along was that mixing DE1 and 2 is not an optimal situation. My car will break 110 if I drive it off a cliff, but I am fine with you and the viper, etc. I gotta keep my eyes open and watching the rearview, but having high hp cars and low hp cars is all part of the learning process in DE2.

 

Most first time DE1 guys are not really ready to deal with really fast cars/drivers. Imagine you now on a track with you the first time out.

 

I remember all to well. And after reading all the comments it bought back those memories. It was in March of this year when the tornado hit Atlanta. I was in the same car with the same setup and everybody did me the same way so it's not the car. And I'm sure I will experience it again. It was the time I had at talladega learning about the car and it's ability. It was detuned for this track event because Reese knew I would push it. I'm glad he limited the power else I would have probably been banned that day for pushing that car or scared myself into scubbing the whole weekend and renting talladega to play with just 3 or less people. I have no idea what that car can do. And after 20 years as a researcher with NASA Langley Research Center in Flight/Materials Research; I am/was in 'Test Pilot' mode and simply want to 'know' the limits of me and that car...but slowly and safely. So if there are any instructors with a Z06 who'll be at Barber Sept 13 & 14 let me know so I can get a second voice in my head - a 'Safety Pilot' if you will to keep me grounded while pushing slowly to the limit.

 

It's alot of fun and I had a blast but people saying I scared them takes the fun out of it.

 

 

There will quite a few ZO6 instrutors at Chin in Sep at Barber....

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LMan
NASA SE is really hurting for instructors.

 

How do you know that?

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sperkins
NASA SE is really hurting for instructors.

 

How do you know that?

 

It's pretty much a hot topic in every classroom session in HPDE. If that wasn't the case, we would not be having this discussion.

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LMan

Perhaps. But evaluating truth on whether there's an IntardWeb thread on the topic, is not the best idea

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sperkins
Perhaps. But evaluating truth on whether there's an IntardWeb thread on the topic, is not the best idea

 

Huh?

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Drumrboy

In the video he's running high 1:40's.... that's fine for either 1/2 or 3 IMHO.

 

 

 

 

I understand where you are coming from.

I saw where it was mentioned you were running sub-1:30?

If that is the case, you need to go to the SE section here and talk to Varkswo (aka Mr Englund- time trial director and vette driver) and the Pattons (HPDE dir's).

If you're 9 secs faster than a TTA Z06's track record and are in Unlimited range (closing on Reese's times), then they do need to get your grouping situated and get you safely into a faster group.

1:30 is insane fast!

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Varkwso

[/quote=dbright07]I understand where you are coming from.

I saw where it was mentioned you were running sub-1:30?

If that is the case, you need to go to the SE section here and talk to Varkswo (aka Mr England- time trial director and vette driver) and the Pattons (HPDE dir's).

If you're 9 secs faster than a TTA Z06's track record and are in Unlimited range (closing on Reese's times), then they do need to get your grouping situated and get you safely into a faster group.

1:30 is insane fast!

 

Road Atlanta TTA record is held by a Z28 Camaro....it is 1:38.x I think

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Drumrboy

The video was sped WAY up.

 

If you look at the you Tube clock, he's running 1:29. I was on his butt for 5 laps (he's not as good at giving point by's as he is receiving them) and I was running 1:47-1:49. Fast enough to have fun but that's not unsafe wrt closing speeds in HPDE1/2.

 

S'all good.

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sperkins
The video was sped WAY up.

 

That video was not altered in any way. You have to remember that his car is basically a street legal race car.

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CaspersZ06
The video was sped WAY up.

 

If you look at the you Tube clock, he's running 1:29. I was on his butt for 5 laps (he's not as good at giving point by's as he is receiving them) and I was running 1:47-1:49. Fast enough to have fun but that's not unsafe wrt closing speeds in HPDE1/2.

 

S'all good.

 

Not sure what you mean by that. Wish I knew how to do that. It would be fun to watch! And unfortunately I don't have the time to learn. But now that you mentioned that I can be done I can create somewhat of a video game effect after learn how to do it with Windows Movie Maker. How do you do that???? Now I'm curious.

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CaspersZ06
The video was sped WAY up.

 

If you look at the you Tube clock, he's running 1:29. I was on his butt for 5 laps (he's not as good at giving point by's as he is receiving them) and I was running 1:47-1:49. Fast enough to have fun but that's not unsafe wrt closing speeds in HPDE1/2.

 

S'all good.

 

Not sure what you mean by that. Wish I knew how to do that. It would be fun to watch! And unfortunately I don't have the time to learn. But now that you mentioned that I can be done I can create somewhat of a video game effect after learn how to do it with Windows Movie Maker. How do you do that???? Now I'm curious.

 

That I imagine would be odd...If it slows down to what you think is normal then the arms coming out for point bys and the slow speeds of some of the cars there would be WAY SLOW to not seem like a slow motion. Perhaps I'm imagining things by sight. But now I am stoked about finding time to learn how to speed things up.

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Drumrboy

Casper Casper Casper. Do you think you were running 1:29, really? It doesn't matter (except to your ego I guess) but truth is you were running high 1:40's at best. For the record, you pulled well in the back straight, did 11 and 12 pretty well but were very slow in 5/6/7 and you started braking halfway down the hill into 10A...well before the 300 mark. Recall?

 

It was fun running with you, but I gotta say you are one of the most egregious abusers of the pass-with-no-point-by I have seen in my years in NASA. Be careful out there, the newbs may not see you and cut off your line as you try to go by.....that's the beauty of point-by - it lets both drivers know they see each other....(oh, and get a lap timer!).

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CaspersZ06
Casper Casper Casper. Do you think you were running 1:29, really? It doesn't matter (except to your ego I guess) but truth is you were running high 1:40's at best. For the record, you pulled well in the back straight, did 11 and 12 pretty well but were very slow in 5/6/7 and you started braking halfway down the hill into 10A...well before the 300 mark. Recall?

 

It was fun running with you, but I gotta say you are one of the most egregious abusers of the pass-with-no-point-by I have seen in my years in NASA. Be careful out there, the newbs may not see you and cut off your line as you try to go by.....that's the beauty of point-by - it lets both drivers know they see each other....(oh, and get a lap timer!).

 

Drumrboy....on my video comments I said from the get go what my time was as it was told to me. I was told my best time that was actually taken was 1:48 in the traffic. I ws not recording it myself it was being done at trackside. All this back and forth and hupla going on is ridiculous at best. Run what you have - run where they put you - and when you ask for and recieve a check ride to move up...you do. The finger pointing, criticisms and negative crap is not what Tack Days are about. It's all about fun - and in the classroom sessions I am sure the point by's - Giving AND Recieving will be addressed. Those who don't wait (And I was Black Flagged) and those who don't give (Did'nt see any given for that). So this is something that if you notice from previous threads will be addressed and is already on the minds of the powers that be. I looked at the videos and had to pause a few time to actually see the point by. I am curious...what is your point in all this?? What exactly are you trying to get accross here that has not been addressed earlier in the previous threads??

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Drumrboy

So we agree, finally. Mission accomplished

 

 

 

 

 

Casper Casper Casper. Do you think you were running 1:29, really? It doesn't matter (except to your ego I guess) but truth is you were running high 1:40's at best. For the record, you pulled well in the back straight, did 11 and 12 pretty well but were very slow in 5/6/7 and you started braking halfway down the hill into 10A...well before the 300 mark. Recall?

 

It was fun running with you, but I gotta say you are one of the most egregious abusers of the pass-with-no-point-by I have seen in my years in NASA. Be careful out there, the newbs may not see you and cut off your line as you try to go by.....that's the beauty of point-by - it lets both drivers know they see each other....(oh, and get a lap timer!).

 

Drumrboy....on my video comments I said from the get go what my time was as it was told to me. I was told my best time that was actually taken was 1:48 in the traffic. I ws not recording it myself it was being done at trackside. All this back and forth and hupla going on is ridiculous at best. Run what you have - run where they put you - and when you ask for and recieve a check ride to move up...you do. The finger pointing, criticisms and negative crap is not what Tack Days are about. It's all about fun - and in the classroom sessions I am sure the point by's - Giving AND Recieving will be addressed. Those who don't wait (And I was Black Flagged) and those who don't give (Did'nt see any given for that). So this is something that if you notice from previous threads will be addressed and is already on the minds of the powers that be. I looked at the videos and had to pause a few time to actually see the point by. I am curious...what is your point in all this?? What exactly are you trying to get accross here that has not been addressed earlier in the previous threads??

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CaspersZ06

Here's the link to video with comments from me about my time - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHG3Wn4wo38. I've only been doing this since April. Not exactly into the 'Lap Time' thing yet. Getting a handle on the car and it's capabilities along with my learning how to drive it and have fun are the only things on my mind. Not much experience at this track driving to take myself a fraction as serious as you claim I do. But as you said...It's all good. I copied the thread just this morning and pasted below for you.

 

Text Comments (6)

Show: all comments excellent (+10 or better) great (+5 or better) good (0 or better) average (-5 or better) poor (-10 or better) Help Change this to see only comments above a certain value.

Change the value of a comment by clicking on a thumb. 68ray (1 week ago) Show Hide 0 Marked as spam Reply | Spam

| Remove | Block User Also - why on earth did you have that car in the HPDE 1&2 group? That's not cool.

CaspersZ06 (1 week ago) Show Hide Marked as spam Reply | Remove That's where they put me and I could not get a check ride. Even if I did I would have had to drive in 2 all weekend they said! So there was a hunger for more speed and more space! Thus the song

68ray (1 week ago) Show Hide 0 Marked as spam Reply | Spam

| Remove | Block User Holy crap you were absolutely flying! Hopefully when someone at NASA watches this video they will see how badly you need to be in DE3 or DE4. I'm sure you scared the living crap out of most of those guys - especially the DE1 folks. That is one bad ass car man and some very nice driving. Kudos to you and Reese.

68ray (1 week ago) Show Hide 0 Marked as spam Reply | Spam

| Remove | Block User Damn that's stupid fast. Wasn't that Reese driving?

CaspersZ06 (1 week ago) Show Hide Marked as spam Reply | Remove NOT Reese this time..call him. He showed me how to drive my car at Little Talladega 4th July MTI Racing Track Day.

68ray (1 week ago) Show Hide 0 Marked as spam Reply | Spam

| Remove | Block User I'd say so! You were under 1:29!!! That is amazing.

CaspersZ06 (1 week ago) Show Hide Marked as spam Reply | Remove Not under 1:29. Not close! TOO MUCH Traffic! The video is a combination of my frustration and traffic jams. Showing how I walked up on cars from turn 8 to 10A. Roman said my best lap was 1:48 [/color]68ray (1 week ago) Show Hide 0 Marked as spam Reply | Spam

| Remove | Block User Yeah but if you loop the laps together without traffic, I came up with 1:28xx

68ray (1 week ago) Show Hide 0 Marked as spam Reply | Spam

| Remove | Block User I watched again and at 2:11xx you crossed the start/finish line. You had clear track and crossed again at 1:39xx - that's a 1:28 all day in my book.

CaspersZ06 (1 week ago) Show Hide Marked as spam Reply | Remove We may not have timed that session. We did not do it in all sessions as there was alot going on with the new supercharger on the test vehicle. Wicked fast!

 

Casper Casper Casper. Do you think you were running 1:29, really? It doesn't matter (except to your ego I guess) but truth is you were running high 1:40's at best. For the record, you pulled well in the back straight, did 11 and 12 pretty well but were very slow in 5/6/7 and you started braking halfway down the hill into 10A...well before the 300 mark. Recall?

 

It was fun running with you, but I gotta say you are one of the most egregious abusers of the pass-with-no-point-by I have seen in my years in NASA. Be careful out there, the newbs may not see you and cut off your line as you try to go by.....that's the beauty of point-by - it lets both drivers know they see each other....(oh, and get a lap timer!).

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Firebird Man

Here's my take on point bys done by a first timer at RA, after the first two sessions that is. The first two I didn't have a clue what I was suppose to do. To much information overload.

 

Back stretch: When the instructor told me to let cars pass or I saw them closing and ready to pass off 7 I moved left and gave point bys and lifted slightly, unless I had clear track I'd get left anyway, when I got to the black flag stand on the back I held my line and started doing what I needed to do to set up turn 10, if you decided you wanted to try and come up at 150 and blow by me at the top of the hill it was at yours and my risk, luckily I only had a couple that tried that. I have a lot of speed to scrub off before 10a too.

 

Down the front: I'd hold the outside and point by, usually only 2 maybe 3 cars can get by unless I really slowed down which I didn't, I'd lift slighty and let a car or 2 pass and set up turn one, several times I'd give a point by and the car behind would not pass but I also had several cars try and blow by the inside after the braking markers, had I not seen them it could have been bad.

 

From 5-6: This was tricky sometimes, depending on what was behind me I could pull away given it's such a short chute, but usually I pulled left and let cars by, sometimes it was only one, rarely more than 3, turn 6 was my best turn, I could take it at speed easliy, for whatever reason I had that one nailed.

 

But given all the above I needed my line to set turns up correctly as well, meaning I couldn't just pull over every lap and let cars by, I have to learn to. I felt like I did well my first time out.

If you feel you should have gotten a point by late down a stretch and felt the need to pull long and dive in and cut someone off in HPDE-1 you need to get off the track, that's probably what you do in rush hour too, it has no place while learning road course driving.

 

Maybe the fact I'm getting into this at a lot older age than most in my class I'm working into it as logically and as safely as possible, anyone can go fast in a straight line, learning braking, turning and etiquette is paramount so there isn't a bunch of messed up cars after each event. This is a hobby, no big cash awards, no endorsement deals, just a bunch of guys and girls that have a lot invested in our cars and want to drive them hard.

My advise to especially HPDE drivers? Treat the next guys car like you let him borrow your car.

 

I also heard a couple of guys complain they didn't understand why they were still in HPDE-1 for the uptenth time, complaining about everything. I didn't know them from Adam, but I'd say it was probably their attitude, not driving skills.

 

My 2 cents, let the flaming begin.

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CaspersZ06

If you feel you should have gotten a point by late down a stretch and felt the need to pull long and dive in and cut someone off in HPDE-1 you need to get off the track, that's probably what you do in rush hour too, it has no place while learning road course driving.

 

I agree with everything but this one above...That's dangerous. about MY background concerning this...I was hit head on by drunk driver in April 2002 and flatlined; he did'nt make it. I was told when I came to that I would never walk again (That Bites!) But I am walking with 9 large rods in my back and I KNOW an accident hurts. I won't be and have not been tempting fate conciously. Rush hour I do not participate in too much - don't have to. But I think I see your point in all this now and what looked like a risk to you on my part was my simply doing as I said in previous threads .... I'm trying to drive to the limits slowly learning about me and the car. This was my first event after an all day instructional track event at a small track (Little Talladega) ....now lengthen everything and you get more at ease with what you are doing.

 

Again I get what you are saying now and those turn descpriptive comments are dead on for me too.

 

 

Here's my take on point bys done by a first timer at RA, after the first two sessions that is. The first two I didn't have a clue what I was suppose to do. To much information overload.

 

Back stretch: When the instructor told me to let cars pass or I saw them closing and ready to pass off 7 I moved left and gave point bys and lifted slightly, unless I had clear track I'd get left anyway, when I got to the black flag stand on the back I held my line and started doing what I needed to do to set up turn 10, if you decided you wanted to try and come up at 150 and blow by me at the top of the hill it was at yours and my risk, luckily I only had a couple that tried that. I have a lot of speed to scrub off before 10a too.

 

Down the front: I'd hold the outside and point by, usually only 2 maybe 3 cars can get by unless I really slowed down which I didn't, I'd lift slighty and let a car or 2 pass and set up turn one, several times I'd give a point by and the car behind would not pass but I also had several cars try and blow by the inside after the braking markers, had I not seen them it could have been bad.

 

From 5-6: This was tricky sometimes, depending on what was behind me I could pull away given it's such a short chute, but usually I pulled left and let cars by, sometimes it was only one, rarely more than 3, turn 6 was my best turn, I could take it at speed easliy, for whatever reason I had that one nailed.

 

But given all the above I needed my line to set turns up correctly as well, meaning I couldn't just pull over every lap and let cars by, I have to learn to. I felt like I did well my first time out.

If you feel you should have gotten a point by late down a stretch and felt the need to pull long and dive in and cut someone off in HPDE-1 you need to get off the track, that's probably what you do in rush hour too, it has no place while learning road course driving.

 

Maybe the fact I'm getting into this at a lot older age than most in my class I'm working into it as logically and as safely as possible, anyone can go fast in a straight line, learning braking, turning and etiquette is paramount so there isn't a bunch of messed up cars after each event. This is a hobby, no big cash awards, no endorsement deals, just a bunch of guys and girls that have a lot invested in our cars and want to drive them hard.

My advise to especially HPDE drivers? Treat the next guys car like you let him borrow your car.

 

I also heard a couple of guys complain they didn't understand why they were still in HPDE-1 for the uptenth time, complaining about everything. I didn't know them from Adam, but I'd say it was probably their attitude, not driving skills.

 

My 2 cents, let the flaming begin.

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CaspersZ06
So we agree, finally. Mission accomplished

 

I'm in agreement on that too. Kudos to us for a job well done however it got done. See you at Barber.

 

 

 

 

 

Casper Casper Casper. Do you think you were running 1:29, really? It doesn't matter (except to your ego I guess) but truth is you were running high 1:40's at best. For the record, you pulled well in the back straight, did 11 and 12 pretty well but were very slow in 5/6/7 and you started braking halfway down the hill into 10A...well before the 300 mark. Recall?

 

It was fun running with you, but I gotta say you are one of the most egregious abusers of the pass-with-no-point-by I have seen in my years in NASA. Be careful out there, the newbs may not see you and cut off your line as you try to go by.....that's the beauty of point-by - it lets both drivers know they see each other....(oh, and get a lap timer!).

 

Drumrboy....on my video comments I said from the get go what my time was as it was told to me. I was told my best time that was actually taken was 1:48 in the traffic. I ws not recording it myself it was being done at trackside. All this back and forth and hupla going on is ridiculous at best. Run what you have - run where they put you - and when you ask for and recieve a check ride to move up...you do. The finger pointing, criticisms and negative crap is not what Tack Days are about. It's all about fun - and in the classroom sessions I am sure the point by's - Giving AND Recieving will be addressed. Those who don't wait (And I was Black Flagged) and those who don't give (Did'nt see any given for that). So this is something that if you notice from previous threads will be addressed and is already on the minds of the powers that be. I looked at the videos and had to pause a few time to actually see the point by. I am curious...what is your point in all this?? What exactly are you trying to get accross here that has not been addressed earlier in the previous threads??

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Firebird Man

When I decided to build a race car and get into Vintage racing I ran across this article, it is well written and the first few rules cross over to any field.

The 7/10's rule is the most paramount I think.

 

It was a wealth of information in it that can be applied to what ever class you want to run in.

 

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/3000/vint_buy.html"

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