Why mix HPDE 1 & HPDE 2?

[gte024h]

I can attest that Casper was flying, he passed me before my hand got out the window. I don't blame him since he was carrying so much speed it would have been difficult to slow down and wait for each car in the train to give a point by. But it's really not safe and I did voice my concern to my instructor. And it wasn't just Casper, there were a couple of other drivers that were obviously way faster than everyone else. You would think that the corner workers could relay that info to the control tower and the (insanely) faster drivers could be regrouped for subsequent sessions.

 

Back in March we had a mega thread (in the SouthEast forum) about this very same topic. There have been lots of good suggestions, hopefully someday they will get implemented. I think the easiest to implement would be to just group by horsepower. It's already on the registration form online, so I assume the info is readily available. You still end up with HPDE 1a/2a and HPDE 1b/2b, but the cars are more matched (notice I said cars, not drivers). It's not perfect, but at least you would be less likely to have a Z06 run up on an Accord at 150 MPH. It would be nice to group by driver skill, but there's no real good way to do that with the information collected on the registration form.

[CaspersZ06]

I agree too with what you said. This is the same car I got passed in from April til now. Great instruction for an entire day from Reese Cox of MTI Racing who built the car in reference to his #98 (before the new supercharger). MTI Racing rents tracks for Reese to test platforms and to invite customers out for driving instruction. We are having another one in October. Some say their prices are high but what other corvette tuner actually track test it's products and offer training to customers. I think the A and B could be separated into groups of HP differences. Are there any corvette clubs or other driving schools offering track time and instruction?

 

I can attest that Casper was flying, he passed me before my hand got out the window. I don't blame him since he was carrying so much speed it would have been difficult to slow down and wait for each car in the train to give a point by. But it's really not safe and I did voice my concern to my instructor. And it wasn't just Casper, there were a couple of other drivers that were obviously way faster than everyone else. You would think that the corner workers could relay that info to the control tower and the (insanely) faster drivers could be regrouped for subsequent sessions.

 

Back in March we had a mega thread (in the SouthEast forum) about this very same topic. There have been lots of good suggestions, hopefully someday they will get implemented. I think the easiest to implement would be to just group by horsepower. It's already on the registration form online, so I assume the info is readily available. You still end up with HPDE 1a/2a and HPDE 1b/2b, but the cars are more matched (notice I said cars, not drivers). It's not perfect, but at least you would be less likely to have a Z06 run up on an Accord at 150 MPH. It would be nice to group by driver skill, but there's no real good way to do that with the information collected on the registration form.

[Varkwso]

..... say their prices are high but what other corvette tuner actually track test it's products and offer training to customers. I think the A and B could be separated into groups of HP differences. Are there any corvette clubs or other driving schools offering track time and instruction?

 

Yes there are - National Corvette Museum has an event at Putnam in October, just had an event at Road America, and will be at VIR again next July.

 

There are lots of driving schools - some good, some bad. But since this is a NASA thread it seems a shame to make it an infomercial for MTI......or any other non-affliated club

 

LGM track test's its products and does assist its customers, also...

[CaspersZ06]

Not infomercial...there's a stink about my driving and to set the record straight I just want those to know that I am still newbie by track experience. Only difference is what experience...have not been in HPDE 2 but twice at RA. That's all. Wish NASA had more track days and more track time during those days but as I get more fun out of it I take what I can get and instructions and comments from whomever gives them. Informational junkie is what I am as I understand knowledge is like money in the bank. "Feed me Seymore!" is my feeling.

 

..... say their prices are high but what other corvette tuner actually track test it's products and offer training to customers. I think the A and B could be separated into groups of HP differences. Are there any corvette clubs or other driving schools offering track time and instruction?

 

Yes there are - National Corvette Museum has an event at Putnam in October, just had an event at Road America, and will be at VIR again next July.

 

There are lots of driving schools - some good, some bad. But since this is a NASA thread it seems a shame to make it an infomercial for MTI......or any other non-affliated club

 

LGM track test's its products and does assist its customers, also...

[Kanmer]

Separating cars by HP is not the answer. At VIR with The National Corvette Museum they had everything from c4 to the new ZR1. I drive a C5 ZO6 (2002) and was passing the the ZR1 that had 250 more HP. It is more driver skill than HP. Anyone can go fast in a straight line with gobs of HP but you need seat time to go fast through corners and while passing. I have given points to lower HP cars because the driver was better.

 

I do not agree with combining 1 & 2. I run mainly with MA and think that keeping the 2 groups seperate is the safest thing. NASA had a system that worked for years. Why change it? If it ain't broke don't fix it as the old addage goes. I think that first timers are in sensory overload for the first few session and trying to let faster cars pass as well as trying to figure out what to do is kinda nuts.

 

My girlfriend was in DE1 (their suggestion as she had never run RA before) with 15 track days. She was moved to 2 after her instructor saw her car control. What was the difference? She was still out there with the same cars running at the same time.

 

Yes, there probably is an instructor shortage. So split de1. Don't combine it with a more experienced group. Thats just flat dangerous. As is passing without a point by. I am in DE3 and I wait for a point by. NO EXCEPTIONS!!! This way I am sure that they know I am there and vise versa. I have had very little problems with people working with me to pass. Just show a little paitience and all is good. Use the time stuck behind another car as learning time. Drive off line, threshold brake, or practice heel/toe. Everything can be a learning experience.

 

Bob

[CaspersZ06]

Good points! I remember last time at RA and Barber getting passed by lower HP cars due to driver experience in same car with same set up. I sucked, was intimidated, had no clue, etc. Seat time is the constant answer I've been given. Wish my corporation had the extra money to build a track - I'd put my office building on site. More please. I'm absorbing all comments - positive, negative, good and bad - personal and non personal. Any information helps as too much money has been and will be spent on car and track time to screw up due to lack of information.

 

Separating cars by HP is not the answer. At VIR with The National Corvette Museum they had everything from c4 to the new ZR1. I drive a C5 ZO6 (2002) and was passing the the ZR1 that had 250 more HP. It is more driver skill than HP. Anyone can go fast in a straight line with gobs of HP but you need seat time to go fast through corners and while passing. I have given points to lower HP cars because the driver was better.

 

I do not agree with combining 1 & 2. I run mainly with MA and think that keeping the 2 groups seperate is the safest thing. NASA had a system that worked for years. Why change it? If it ain't broke don't fix it as the old addage goes. I think that first timers are in sensory overload for the first few session and trying to let faster cars pass as well as trying to figure out what to do is kinda nuts.

 

My girlfriend was in DE1 (their suggestion as she had never run RA before) with 15 track days. She was moved to 2 after her instructor saw her car control. What was the difference? She was still out there with the same cars running at the same time.

 

Yes, there probably is an instructor shortage. So split de1. Don't combine it with a more experienced group. Thats just flat dangerous. As is passing without a point by. I am in DE3 and I wait for a point by. NO EXCEPTIONS!!! This way I am sure that they know I am there and vise versa. I have had very little problems with people working with me to pass. Just show a little paitience and all is good. Use the time stuck behind another car as learning time. Drive off line, threshold brake, or practice heel/toe. Everything can be a learning experience.

 

Bob

[FlyingDog]

I can attest that Casper was flying, he passed me before my hand got out the window. I don't blame him since he was carrying so much speed it would have been difficult to slow down and wait for each car in the train to give a point by. But it's really not safe and I did voice my concern to my instructor. And it wasn't just Casper, there were a couple of other drivers that were obviously way faster than everyone else. You would think that the corner workers could relay that info to the control tower and the (insanely) faster drivers could be regrouped for subsequent sessions.

I have come up on cars on the front straight of both VIR and Summit Point going 110-140 with a speed differential greater than 50mph (maybe close to 100mph in HPDE1/2 in the Porsche). This has happened in HPDE1, 2, and 3. I have always braked if there wasn't a hand out the window. In a point-by required run group when novices are included, passing without a point should not be tolerated. Driving a fast car in a slow run group (or with slow drivers that do not belong in HPDE3) is frustrating, but that doesn't mean somebody should ignore the safety rules.

I think the easiest to implement would be to just group by horsepower. It's already on the registration form online, so I assume the info is readily available. You still end up with HPDE 1a/2a and HPDE 1b/2b, but the cars are more matched (notice I said cars, not drivers). It's not perfect, but at least you would be less likely to have a Z06 run up on an Accord at 150 MPH. It would be nice to group by driver skill, but there's no real good way to do that with the information collected on the registration form.

HP grouping doesn't really work. I've passed Z06s and supercharged Mustangs in a 1.6L street Miata. I've been passed by Miatas while driving a ~300hp Porsche. Having instructors that honestly review their students would help more.

 

FWIW, when I moved from HPDE1 to HPDE2 in Mid-Atlantic, I did not notice a big increase in the speed or driving skills of other drivers. There were good drivers, bad drivers, fast drivers, and slow drivers in both groups.

[CaspersZ06]

So what if there were just HPDE1 and HPDE 2 like they do with 3 and 4?

 

HP grouping doesn't really work. I've passed Z06s and supercharged Mustangs in a 1.6L street Miata. I've been passed by Miatas while driving a ~300hp Porsche. Having instructors that honestly review their students would help more.

 

FWIW, when I moved from HPDE1 to HPDE2 in Mid-Atlantic, I did not notice a big increase in the speed or driving skills of other drivers. There were good drivers, bad drivers, fast drivers, and slow drivers in both groups.

[sperkins]

After 11 pages one would think an official explanation would be given.

[Lucid Moments]

So what if there were just HPDE1 and HPDE 2 like they do with 3 and 4?

 

That is the way they used to do it, and the way that the mid-atlantic region still does it.

 

I liked it much better that way because once you moved out of HPDE1 you never had any absolute newbies out on track. Everybody out there in HPDE 2 has a certain comfort level, and has demonstrated at least a minimal amount of car control which cuts down on trains at least somewhat. Some trains are going to happen no matter what you do. Grouping HPDE1 and HPDE2 together creates more than there would be if they were seperate.

[Lucid Moments]

After 11 pages one would think an official explanation would be given.

 

It would be nice wouldn't it.

[Gonz]

i thought some officials wrote comments on this thread ?

 

My take based on reading the thread is that by having HPDE 1 & 2 grouped together, fewer instructors are required. I don't think that makes it a good idea to group them, but i understood that as the reality of the situation.

 

Group 2 is always going to have large speed & talent variance. You've got the guy who just came out of group 1 on track with the guy or girl who is just about to move on to Group 3.

 

Even when you get to Group 3 the situation doesn't go away. You've got guys who've done 50+ days on a particular track with guys who are on that particular track for the first time. In the Saturday AM session there can be quite a speed difference and sometimes learning the new track means the mirrors are not being watched as closely as someone who already knows the track well.

 

But we always have classroom sessions to discuss what's going on out there with everyone else in the run group & with the lead instructor. If something doesn't look right out there, bring it up in class so everyone can be aware and maybe fix it.

[snakebit]

Let me thru a "what if" out there. I understand the instructor situation that led to the combining of 1 and 2. And I understand the frustration of some, from reading this thread.

 

What if the first morning sessions, Saturday only, were changed. Instead of 4 - 20 minutes sessions (two for 1a/2a and two for 1b/2b) you do two 40 minute sessions. One for 1a/2a and one for 1b/2b. This 40 minute session would be broken down into 3 segments.

 

Segment 1. 10-12 minutes of group 1 only, behind a pace car with laps becoming progressively faster. Group 2 still on grid.

 

Segment 2. 12-15 minutes of group 2 only, while group 1 is on hot pits doing in-car instructor download.

 

Segment 3. 10-12 minutes of group 1 at speed. Group 2 is finished

 

Are any benefits gained from this format, and if so, is it worth the sacrifice of one session from the weekend?

Just an idea.....

John

 

Remaining Saturday sessions and all Sunday sessions remain as is.

[CaspersZ06]

For RA in Aug we had our 4 sessions per day cut to 3 for some reason. So the time on track has already been shortened. I now thing that until I get a check ride I will be concentrating on perfecting my lines instead of trying to get the balls to the wall thing down. This way I will be part of the solution instead of part of the problem til I move up - hopefully the next session after. We'll see. Mods to the car are done now and it is detuned for track to cut HP so not to overpower track and spin out

 

 

Let me thru a "what if" out there. I understand the instructor situation that led to the combining of 1 and 2. And I understand the frustration of some, from reading this thread.

 

What if the first morning sessions, Saturday only, were changed. Instead of 4 - 20 minutes sessions (two for 1a/2a and two for 1b/2b) you do two 40 minute sessions. One for 1a/2a and one for 1b/2b. This 40 minute session would be broken down into 3 segments.

 

Segment 1. 10-12 minutes of group 1 only, behind a pace car with laps becoming progressively faster. Group 2 still on grid.

 

Segment 2. 12-15 minutes of group 2 only, while group 1 is on hot pits doing in-car instructor download.

 

Segment 3. 10-12 minutes of group 1 at speed. Group 2 is finished

 

Are any benefits gained from this format, and if so, is it worth the sacrifice of one session from the weekend?

Just an idea.....

John

 

Remaining Saturday sessions and all Sunday sessions remain as is.

[Bruce L.]

couple of quick thoughts on the last couple of pages

- slower driver should always stay on their line so as to be as predictable as possible - passing driver should be the one who moves off line. If that doesn't leave the passer well set up for the next corner, they are passing too late and should not have taken the pass at that place. Learning to make good decisions is a part of the program.

- passing without a point-by should not be tolerated. OTOH, failure to give a point-by is not ideal, but is understandable when someone is new, and doesn't lead to a potential accident so is not in the same class as passing without a point-by.

- by mixing HPDE 1 and 2, the instructors who are out with the 1 drivers can also be watching/evaluating the new-to-solo 2 drivers - the decision to move someone to 3 is not based on a single check ride

- smoothness and line first leads to speed later (is the perfect attitude)

 

Best place to question NASA officials is at the event so things can be dealt with directly.

 

thanks,

bruce

(not a spokesperson for NASA, but I do volunteer with them...)

[CaspersZ06]

I kind of thought this was their train of thought for mixing; thanks for clarifying. Now interesting with all the good reasons for and against mixing or not mixing. Seems to be in drivers' court to just practice lines and wait for check ride. Or try to find a group and team up to rent little Talladega for a day for test/tune type of driving. Just make sure the 'Track Days' budget is in tact with RA and Barber events come around.

 

couple of quick thoughts on the last couple of pages

- slower driver should always stay on their line so as to be as predictable as possible - passing driver should be the one who moves off line. If that doesn't leave the passer well set up for the next corner, they are passing too late and should not have taken the pass at that place. Learning to make good decisions is a part of the program.

- passing without a point-by should not be tolerated. OTOH, failure to give a point-by is not ideal, but is understandable when someone is new, and doesn't lead to a potential accident so is not in the same class as passing without a point-by.

- by mixing HPDE 1 and 2, the instructors who are out with the 1 drivers can also be watching/evaluating the new-to-solo 2 drivers - the decision to move someone to 3 is not based on a single check ride

- smoothness and line first leads to speed later (is the perfect attitude)

 

Best place to question NASA officials is at the event so things can be dealt with directly.

 

thanks,

bruce

(not a spokesperson for NASA, but I do volunteer with them...)

[Lucid Moments]

A couple of responses to your comments

 

- slower driver should always stay on their line so as to be as predictable as possible - passing driver should be the one who moves off line. If that doesn't leave the passer well set up for the next corner, they are passing too late and should not have taken the pass at that place. Learning to make good decisions is a part of the program.

 

I agree completely and without reservation

- passing without a point-by should not be tolerated. OTOH, failure to give a point-by is not ideal, but is understandable when someone is new, and doesn't lead to a potential accident so is not in the same class as passing without a point-by.

 

Again I agree completely and without reservation

 

- by mixing HPDE 1 and 2, the instructors who are out with the 1 drivers can also be watching/evaluating the new-to-solo 2 drivers - the decision to move someone to 3 is not based on a single check ride

 

Here is where I start to disagree. While this might be nice in theory there is no way this is happening. The instructors have enough going on with two students to keep track of (not at the same time of course) to have any idea as to who is in what car. And the cheif instructors have enough going on that I don't believe that it would be possible for them to keep up with reports from all the instructors on track. Like it or not the single check ride is all you get to decide if someone moves up to HPDE3

 

- smoothness and line first leads to speed later (is the perfect attitude)

 

Certainly true. This should be what we strive for in HPDE. Wether we always acheive this is up to question of course

 

Best place to question NASA officials is at the event so things can be dealt with directly.

 

I disagree again. For one thing, from what I understand, the combining of HPDE 1 and 2 is a national level initiative. To the best of my knowledge no national level official has ever attended a Southeast event. I say to the best of my knowledge because I don't know who the national level officials that would make a decision like this are.

 

As for bringing issues like this up to our local officials. Jim and Julie are great folks and put on a great event. But putting on those events have them busy as hell, and since the changes that need to be made can't be made while they are at the event then that is the worst time to bring them up.

 

I would encourage people to let their local directors know what you think of this issue. But sending them an e-mail or calling them sometime between events might be a better choice.

 

Or heck, maybe post up in the NASA forum? They provide it to us, and I bet that even if an official has not chosen to post in this thread I hope they have seen it.

[Varkwso]

I look at every driver in every session I go out in - it gives me some comic relief often. Going up is not typically based on a single checkride...

 

Even if after a checkride you are being a bonehead you can get demoted...making a bonehead mistake is not going to get you talked to very hard though (everybody has a few spins in them)

[Robnie0723]

So what if there were just HPDE1 and HPDE 2 like they do with 3 and 4?

 

Most organizations/clubs place beginners in their own group and have 3 or more DE levels and provide more DE seat time than organizations that include race groups. The best ones provide instructors through at least the first two levels. Check the track calendar of the tracks you like to run and follow the links to the various organizations for options.

[kbrew8991]

if your only experience with NASA-SE is Road Atlanta.. well... that sucks its about 40lbs of event in a 10lb bag, much easier to meet your "demands" at other places fwiw

[Robnie0723]

I can attest that Casper was flying, he passed me before my hand got out the window. I don't blame him since he was carrying so much speed it would have been difficult to slow down and wait for each car in the train to give a point by. But it's really not safe and I did voice my concern to my instructor. And it wasn't just Casper, there were a couple of other drivers that were obviously way faster than everyone else. You would think that the corner workers could relay that info to the control tower and the (insanely) faster drivers could be regrouped for subsequent sessions..

 

Next time pit in and complain up the food chain until someone pays attention. (I can't imaging passing without point-bye's wouldn't get attention...) The entire run group & instructors should be called to a meeting to get the rules of engagement understood by all. Any repeat offenders should be sent home.

[Robnie0723]

if your only experience with NASA-SE is Road Atlanta.. well... that sucks its about 40lbs of event in a 10lb bag, much easier to meet your "demands" at other places fwiw

 

Given this and that RA is probably not the best place for new drivers, maybe only DE 2 and up drivers should be allowed to drive at RA?

[sperkins]

Given this and that RA is probably not the best place for new drivers, maybe only DE 2 and up drivers should be allowed to drive at RA?

 

 

 

With 43 HPDE1 registrants this year at Road Atlanta each at nearly $400...... I'm sure you can do the math.

[kbrew8991]

4 DE groups

3 Race groups

1 TT group (damn near need 2...)

 

yeah, about to be 50lbs of event...

[Varkwso]

They split HPDE 3 and 4 at RA. Normally those 2 groups are combined also. Road ATL is a busy event, since it is an expensive place to rent, with almost all groups who run there with race groups.

 

Road Atlanta was a sold out event in all groups, I believe, and I know I see some people only at the RA events. I know there was a wait list for TT there.

 

Mazda and PCA seem to make the attempt to group cars by "type and experience" in their HPDE groups to get speeds somewhat normalized. But it does not work perfectly with them either. Even in "car pure" events such as the NCM with identical (or close to it) cars the learning curve is vastly different and people are often moved around to get in a group at their comfort and skill level. Even an "instructor" pure run group has varying abilities/car performance in its ranks.

 

TT requires transponders and they are gridded by time to get the field as clean as possible, initially. I do not believe that is a suitable, or acceptable, option for HPDE 1/2.

 

Instructors, especially good ones, are hard to come by in almost all groups who depend on volunteers (even in some events who pay instructors!). NASA-SE has the same issues as the rest of the organizations who run events. NASA-SE does "police" their instructor ranks of ones who are only their for the "free" lunch. Two students an event makes it very difficult for any instructor to race W2W or TT to make their own sessions grid times. NASA-SE has tried their best to work the schedule to address this issue. There are some very good instructors who no longer instruct to have the time they need to compete at NASA events.

 

Virtually all events assign each instructor 2 students - I have had as many as 4 per day. Typically at the end of every day at an event the instructors have spent anywhere from 40-90% of the day on track. It is a pretty good day when you are on track all day - but it does wear you down.

 

NASA, and NASA-SE in particular, has a ladder that can take you from HPDE, to TT, to instructor and W2W better then any other group I have run with. Since it is a three ring circus at every event there are compromises for all the groups.

 

HPDE 1/2 combined is one way they address the issues of track time and participation. HPDE 1/2 is vital to the health of the organization since almost all of the racers, TTers, instructors and HPDE 4 started there. Closing an event to HPDE 1 is a bad idea, IMHO. There are already Fridays that are HPDE 3 only at some events - and those seem to work out well.