Why mix HPDE 1 & HPDE 2?

[dbright007]

Great comments Jeff.

From reading everything on here, and my experiences in DE1 and 2, I personally don't think the groups need to be fully separated. It is that first session, maybe 2nd that is awkward.

 

I don't know that there is a great way around it - but any kind of recon laps that the DE1 students could get would probably alleviate most of this discussion. Session 1 vs Session 3 is vastly different.

[Drumrboy]

Combining HPDE 1 and 2 is necessary to alleviate the strain on instructors, not ideal bur necessary at the momnent, given the number of instructors available.

 

It CAN work OK IF the slower cars are courteous and point by as soon as they enter a passing zone (how hard is it to drive a straightaway anyhow, one doesn't lose alot of skill development going a little slower on straights!) and IF the faster cars observe the point-by rule and stay safe.

 

As drivers, we need to do a better job of observing the rules. It WILL make the crowded events better for all. Polyanna, yes. Also true though.

[kbrew8991]

combined 1 & 2 is actually not nessecary due to instructor shortage but what could be nessecary due to instructor shortage is instructor-by-request-only for HPDE 2

 

just to stir the pot on page 13 a bit

[sperkins]

combined 1 & 2 is actually not nessecary due to instructor shortage but what could be nessecary due to instructor shortage is instructor-by-request-only for HPDE 2

 

How would that be possible? There definatey aren't enough instructors to send all the DE1 guys out in the same session. Plus I thought DE2 was indeed instructor-by-request-only???

[Lucid Moments]

combined 1 & 2 is actually not nessecary due to instructor shortage but what could be nessecary due to instructor shortage is instructor-by-request-only for HPDE 2

 

How would that be possible? There definatey aren't enough instructors to send all the DE1 guys out in the same session. Plus I thought DE2 was indeed instructor-by-request-only???

 

 

They did it until all last year, but I understand that it was sometimes hard to find enough qualified instructors.

[kbrew8991]

DE2 used to be mandatory instructor also. hmm, they are breaking DE1 up into 2 groups though.. crap

 

you also need to realize that there was always quantity available, its the quality of that quantity thats being improved with the "shortage". They're not bringing in alot of the ones with the rep for being "freeloaders"

[Lucid Moments]

DE2 used to be mandatory instructor also. hmm, they are breaking DE1 up into 2 groups though.. crap

 

you also need to realize that there was always quantity available, its the quality of that quantity thats being improved with the "shortage". They're not bringing in alot of the ones with the rep for being "freeloaders"

 

 

They got rid of you didn't they?

 

I wonder if they couldn't get more quality instructors though just by having the reduced workload of only having one student?

[kbrew8991]

whats the average now with the reduced workload, ~1.5 students/instructor isn't it?

 

used to be ~2.1-2.2 (Ken, who used to get 2 students *and* all the TT checkrides... they tried to give him 3 students once, ugh)

[Varkwso]

....used to be ~2.1-2.2 (Ken, who used to get 2 students *and* all the TT checkrides... they tried to give him 3 students once, ugh)

 

 

and he still whines about it.....

[Lucid Moments]

whats the average now with the reduced workload, ~1.5 students/instructor isn't it?

 

used to be ~2.1-2.2 (Ken, who used to get 2 students *and* all the TT checkrides... they tried to give him 3 students once, ugh)

 

 

I have no idea of the actual total numbers of students to instructors but I do know that most instructors still have two students. Maybe not all of them though.

[nasaregistrar]

Well 14 pages shows this issue is close to heart.

 

I would like to hear some of the input from some of the other regions as well.

 

SE and MA differ on how they do the HPDE groups as we all seem to know. MA has 1 and 2 separate and Instructors assigned in both groups. One thing that is interesting to note is that SE has big TT groups and we just had to cancel TT at summit for lack of participation. Those TT folks are coming from someplace......

 

Maybe those that would Instruct have chosen to do TT instead and don't have time anymore??

[TurboShortBus]

I would like to hear some of the input from some of the other regions as well.

 

In my experience of going through the HPDE ladder with NASA-FL (from November 2007 until present), we only have a single group for the HPDE1 and HPDE2 combo; no 1a and 1b, etc. There is 1 student per 1 instructor. In the morning classroom sessions, I typically counted about 25 people (give or take a few) who were not instructors. It's hard to say for sure, but about 50% to 75% of those people were usually HPDE1 (with instructor), with the rest being HPDE2 (without instructor). They typically kept a spare instructor or two on hand, just in case one of regulars was a no-show for the day or if they felt that somebody in HPDE2 needed some remedial instruction (I've seen that happen before).

 

From what I have seen, instructors can only run in HPDE3 or in the HPDE4/TT combo group. The race schedule overlaps the HPDE1/2 schedule a couple of times each day, so it's not possible to use racers for instructors. Having instructors in HPDE3 is great, since passengers are allowed, and the instructors are usually willing to let their students ride shotgun. Passengers are not allowed during the HPDE4/TT combo sessions.

 

As for check rides, my HPDE2 and HPDE3 check rides were with people who were not typical instructors for the day. One of the experienced racers was designated for my HPDE2 check ride, while the NASA-FL Chief Instructor was used for my HPDE3 check ride (I have not seen him instruct for an HPDE1 driver, although he runs the classroom and download sessions). Only a couple of people are set aside for HPDE check rides each day, and their availability for check rides is somewhat limited, depending on their own schedules. Sometimes nobody asks for a check ride, and sometimes they will be busy with check rides. If you think you want a check ride, then you had better sign up for one no later than the end of the first session in order to get on the list.

 

But, I cannot say that I have seen the HPDE1/2 "congestion" in NASA-FL that I have read about in other regions. Maybe it's because not that many people are coming out to run HPDE in Florida, or maybe it's because there are 5 or 6 driving clubs in Florida that share the 2 currently active tracks (a 3rd track will be up and running soon, and the 4th will be back in action in a year or so after a major facelift), so there's always somewhere to run every couple of weeks. Well, I suppose you could count Daytona as our 3rd active track in Florida, but not many HPDE groups run there, likely due to the cost.

 

Mark

[Varkwso]

....Maybe those that would Instruct have chosen to do TT instead and don't have time anymore??

 

Most NASA-SE TTers are also instructing at the events - but some have dropped one, or the other, due to the conflict of schedules. It is tough to prep a car, drive a car in competitive TT and instruct two students - but it is amazing how many do it.

 

Sorry to hear about Summit TT being cancelled.

[Firebird Man]

....Maybe those that would Instruct have chosen to do TT instead and don't have time anymore??

 

Most NASA-SE TTers are also instructing at the events - but some have dropped one, or the other, due to the conflict of schedules. It is tough to prep a car, drive a car in competitive TT and instruct two students - but it is amazing how many do it.

 

That's what my instructor was doing, running in TT, helping his buds with their cars and at least 2 students.

Hat off to you Michael, don't know if he's on this board or not. But a nice guy to work with.

 

Question: Why does anyone want to be an instructor? What's the payback?

When the time comes I wouldn't mind paying back a little myself.

[TurboShortBus]

Question: Why does anyone want to be an instructor? What's the payback?

When the time comes I wouldn't mind paying back a little myself.

 

From what I have seen, instructors get free track time. That's probably part of the reason why HPDE1 is significantly more expensive than HPDE2 and 3, but it's also understandable.

 

Mark

[Varkwso]

Question: Why does anyone want to be an instructor? What's the payback?

When the time comes I wouldn't mind paying back a little myself.

 

From what I have seen, instructors get free track time. That's probably part of the reason why HPDE1 is significantly more expensive than HPDE2 and 3, but it's also understandable.

 

Mark

 

There is no "free track time" as an instructor, who does it right ( NASA-SE works hard at getting "good ones") anyway, who earns every minute on the track she/he gets. NASA also provides a lunch to workers. But like the gov't there is a catch - you are a "defacto" serf to the whim's of Ms Laura

[TurboShortBus]

There is no "free track time" as an instructor, who does it right ( NASA-SE works hard at getting "good ones") anyway, who earns every minute on the track she/he gets. NASA also provides a lunch to workers. But like the gov't there is a catch - you are a "defacto" serf to the whim's of Ms Laura

 

What the hell? The nitpickers are chiming in now (no wonder this thread is 15 pages long). Let me rephrase my initial reply:

 

INSTRUCTORS DO NOT PAY MONEY OR EXCHANGE CURRENCY FOR THEIR OWN TRACK TIME. ta-daaaa

 

For instructors who truly enjoy meeting new drivers, encouraging them, and taking someone under their wing, then to me it is, indeed, "free track time;" you do it for the sheer enjoyment. If you feel like being an instructor is "working" and you are "earning" your track time, then maybe you don't really need to be there. Fortunately, my instructors have all been in the former group, and I have yet to meet any in the latter. Then again, they don't seem to be stretched thin in my region, so that might be a factor as well.

 

I also agree that we should strive to have the "good ones;" a lame instructor can cause more harm than good.

 

Mark

[kbrew8991]

One thing that is interesting to note is that SE has big TT groups and we just had to cancel TT at summit for lack of participation. Those TT folks are coming from someplace......

 

Jim & Julie put alot of effort into things to make it easier for instructors to participate in TT - then they bring their friends along, their students learn more about it from a participant and graduate up to there, etc. Then it gets seen as a legitimate place to have fun and compete - even to the guys that move on to WTW.

 

I know Felton puts alot of effort into into MA's effort... I guess SE got lucky with their "viral" effort so far though

 

if your sole reason for wanting to instruct is the compensation - pick another job instead (like series director, timing & scoring, tech, etc). Its too much work for that mere reward, you have to enjoy instructing as well to balance it out. Ask any instructor you come across, the very vast majority will agree.

[Varkwso]

Dang - never been called a nitpicker before...

 

Instructing is a priviledge, not a right, and requires dedication to the students - sometimes at the expense of your own track time. The people who instruct for only "free track time" or soley "to give their buddies rides" are there for the wrong reason. Many forget they do, in fact, work for the Chief Instructor at an event. I know this because many, many times I have filled seats for MIA instructors on Sat and Sun afternoons. Eventually those "instructors" get weeded out in the system. BTW some clubs (e.g., PCA) will let you "buy down" your student load with a partial payment for an event.

 

But to get to the point - NASA-SE has a great instructor program and is using it to support the mixed group format. I make it a point to recruit qualified instructors candidates into the progam. There are never too many good ones doing it for the right reasons.

 

Just the opinion of a "nitpicker"...

 

BTW 15 pages is just a good start on the NASA-SE forum...

[LMan]

I would posit that those who don't really care for instructing but do it solely to save entry fees weed themselves out after a while (if they aren't canned by the region first) simply because its too much work. You have to love it to do it over a long period of time.