mid ohio mustang challenge 3600 lb 300 rwhp run ai times

[stevepoe]

I don't know if anyone has noticed this but some of the miller cup cars are running 135 136's at mid -ohio this weekend..... that is pretty freaking good considering the 3600lb beast with 300 rwhp.

These guys are running AI championship times with a very basic suspension setup and a 245 series tire. Granted it's a bfg but hell it's a 245 and has 3600 lbs on it... In my eyes somebody did some serious homework when choosing parts for this car. it's just amazing they can get around like that with what they are.

 

Thoughts?

[onralz]

Steve,

 

Rated power is 325 but they are actually seeing in the 345-350 range. Jeff F chime in here and correct me if needed please.

They aren't running Toyo tires, they are running far better sticking tires. I'm not bashing Toyo's, I love us all running a spec tire, but they aren't as fast as some other brands. The tires alone are said to be worth more than two seconds a lap.

 

The cars were very well prepared, designed, and built. (Kudos to Jeff F) Don't discount the quality of aerodynamic work done on the cars. They have some time in the wind tunnel and the help with drag and downforce is a huge help.

 

Outstanding brakes, kick ass shock package, tuned suspension, very wide front and rear track, aerodynamics, front to rear balance, very stiff well built chassis, etc.

 

This adds up to some speed.

 

I'd expect the AI cars to be in the low 1:35's, maybe high 1:34's this year at Mid-Ohio depending on weather, and the MC cars to be in the 1:34's solidly this year.

[stevepoe]

Rated power is 325 but they are actually seeing in the 345-350 range.

They aren't running Toyo tires, they are running far better sticking tires. I'm not bashing Toyo's, I love us all running a spec tire, but they aren't as fast as some other brands. The tires alone are said to be worth more than two seconds a lap.

 

OH, my understanding is they are advertised 325 but only making 300 rwhp

 

Far better tires? I can't believe they are worth 2 Seconds a lap. (2seconds over a 245 toyo or 275?) I would love the data on this or see a 3600 lb miller cup mustang on some 17" 275 toyos to compare.

 

Any word on the intake elbow:)

[King Matt]

Put them on Toyos and adjust the weight to AI HP/TQ ratios, and I'll bet they would be in the ballpark in AI. The fast guys are running some good times, but there are a few guys out there actually running slower than CMC in a car that should be faster than AI!

 

I wouldn't put too much weight on the nominal tire width. Just as an example, there is very little difference in available grip between the 255s we run in CMC and the 275s in AI (Jeff F and I have compared data and we carry about the same lateral G through most corners). There is also a wide variance between nominal size and actual size, so those BFGs may not be giving up too much.

 

And I would not be surprised at all if they are worth 2 seconds a lap over a Toyo of equal size. Hoosiers are!

Edited June 20, 2008 by Guest

[onralz]

Rated power is 325 but they are actually seeing in the 345-350 range.

They aren't running Toyo tires, they are running far better sticking tires. I'm not bashing Toyo's, I love us all running a spec tire, but they aren't as fast as some other brands. The tires alone are said to be worth more than two seconds a lap.

 

OH, my understanding is they are advertised 325 but only making 300 rwhp

 

Far better tires? I can't believe they are worth 2 Seconds a lap. (2seconds over a 245 toyo or 275?) I would love the data on this or see a 3600 lb miller cup mustang on some 17" 275 toyos to compare.

 

Any word on the intake elbow:)

 

My AGS car was three seconds a lap faster at Road America on Hoosiers than it was when I went to Toyo's. Same size. On a tighter course, it might add up to be even more, but I don't have any comparisons.

 

Intake elbow came back. I put the wrong zip on it. It'll go out tomorrow.

[stevepoe]

Intake elbow came back. I put the wrong zip on it. It'll go out tomorrow.

NO BIG let me know the damage and I'll get a check your way.

 

How did we go from comparing a toyo dot tire to a hoosier full comp tire..I'm sure that tire is faster. a ton faster .we are talking about a dot bfg against a dot toyo tire. help me understand?

 

Put them on Toyos and adjust the weight to AI HP/TQ ratios, and I'll bet they would be in the ballpark in AI. The fast guys are running some good times,

 

they are already in the ballpark ...hell they are 3600 and 300 now what will happen if we do make them ai legal ?378 rwhp 80 more hp? I don't think they will go slower with more hp.

[King Matt]

The "Hoosiers" we are talking about are their DOT R compounds, like the A Sedan guys run along with many other classes. I have no doubt that the BFGs are significantly faster tires than the Toyos, so if you put the MC cars on Toyos they will slow down a lot. But if you take weight out to equalize the HP, they will speed back up. And I'm guessing that will keep them right around where they are relative to an AI car.

[stevepoe]

. I have no doubt that the BFGs are significantly faster tires than the Toyos

 

Matt, how?

[King Matt]

Cause a little birdie who would know told me!

[stevepoe]

so no data . no 3600 mc car with a set of toyo's and a set of bfg's to compare back to back?

[King Matt]

No, but eventually somebody is going to do it, and we'll know the answer. Maybe sooner rather than later.

[Jeff F]

It's just a stock Mustang with a few parts thrown at it.

 

Engines are rated at 325HP. That's a real, SAE Net, No BS number. They typically make about 300 at the wheels.

 

The difference between the BFG's and Toyo's is huge. Easily 2-3 seconds a lap depending on the track. The BFG is grippier than a Hoosier. A FR500S has more grip than a FR500C on Hoosiers.

[Red Tornado]

hoosiers were worth 2 seconds (1.5-2.5 depending on track) and I have heard R1's are even better so figure enough to offset 50rwhp. I would think hell yes on a tight turn course like mid-ohio.

I still may run one of these next year and just switch tires and drop the exhaust for our events and really see what happens.

[robbodleimages]

A couple things.

 

1. The FR500S dynos at 273 RWHP. That comes from Ford engineers working on this race series.

 

2. I ran 275 BFG in SCCA competition and found them to be easily 2 seconds faster than Toyo RA1's at Road Atlanta.

 

3. Someone I know that has been racing Grand AM/Koni Challenge for a long time drove an FR500S at Mosport and told me that it corners far faster than the FR500C and that you can carry significantly more speed in and thru the corners. The S runs 245 BFG's on heavy GT500 wheels while the C runs 275 Hoosier spec slicks(not DOT's) on light weight custom wheels.

 

He felt the difference was the front splitter and rear wing on the S. The C has no aero on the front or the rear.

 

IMO when you make the engine and exhaust(it runs a street exhaust right now) upgrades to the S that AI allows, you will have a national championship level AI car for years to come.

 

Its the ticket. Its not that expensive to build either.

[swhiteh3]

The BFGs might be quicker, but if the FR500S was developed to the AI rules, it would be a lot quicker than it is. It's simply a well balanced, well-developed car. The S197 still has a LOT of untapped potential....

[King Matt]

Engines are rated at 325HP. That's a real, SAE Net, No BS number. They typically make about 300 at the wheels.

The FR500S dynos at 273 RWHP. That comes from Ford engineers working on this race series.

 

Sounds like these Ford engineers need to get their stories straight.

[robbodleimages]

I was told that they(ford racing) reflashed every FR500S ECU at the track before the first race and that a couple of the cars had been dyno'd. They reported 273rwhp. That would seem to match the 15% standard hp bleed from crank to wheels. 300whp from 325 at the crank means either there is more hp in the engine than 325 or they are getting more than 90% of the power to the wheels.

 

It makes perfect sense to me that the cars are 325 hp and 273rwhp.

[stevepoe]

Sounds like these Ford engineers need to get their stories straight.

 

Matt,,,,funny

 

My understanding was 300rwhp

 

either way ,hell of a car and scott hit it right on....I'm actually thinking about getting one. maybe the guy that stuffed the green and white one at RA will sell his..I bet by the end of the seaon wrecked ones and good ones will start showing up on e-bay

[stevepoe]

Looks like jamie took the win.

[IGZOSTD]

We had a pit next to the Miller guys at the last 25 hour ,and the two cars had pretty good lap times one being a 2:01 and the other around a 2:03. I spent as much time as possible talking to the crew cheif about these cars as I Time Trial an 06 GT . The car is pretty stock as to the engine and most chassie parts. After market front brakes and shocks , the Ford cold air intake and headers . This only adds up to around 300 to 310 Max rwhp .

My car has been on the dyno 3 times , with mods that are simalar but a little more developed , and no headers , but a very modifided exaust system . On a good day max rwhp has been 298. Headers should help to mybe 310 ?

With stock cams and TB I don't think your going to any 325 rw numbers .

My experiance with the tires at Sears Point and Thunder Hill , and others in TT have been 2 to 3 seconds going to dots . I have some rolex Hossiers and they suck .

My car is 3500 with my 240 fat old guy in it . Thats all stock parts gutted w/cage and still have the a/c . going on a diet this winter , the car not me .

[Chim-Chim]

I have a question about their suspension geometries. It looks like they are running anywhere from 0.5" to 1.0" of a drop compared to a stock S197. In all the pictures I've seen of their suspension (not great ones, but enough detail to see pickup points) it looks like they are running the stock pickup points. No drop brackets for the rear LCA axle mounts, no raised front LCA points.

 

Is this indeed true? Is the rear axle roll-understeer something that can be worked around with spring rates?

[ST#97]

The difference is the tires, period. Read the write ups about the R1's compared to Hoosiers, they are faster which means they are faster than toyos.

 

If all goes well this year, expect the AI lap times at MO to be in the 33's... There are 4 cars in our region that could do it and 2 are headed to MO.

 

Knowing full well GRM's article was comparing the MCM's to AI cars from a SE region race, and that Burch was not that far off the top AI pace in a CMC car...I am guessing a REAL AI car with a hot shoe driver would destroy one of these MCM cars, toyos or not.... just my $0.02 though. Put an AI car on R1's, even 245's and there would be no contest.

 

The S197 is a superior platform for an AI build, no doubt, BUT, I think the hype about the MCM cars is just that, Hype to sell cars and get the series off the ground. Maybe we need to hire their marketing guy for NASA?!!!

[robbodleimages]

I have not seen the GRM article, but Robin Burnett ran the March NASA SE event. He had the top times for the weekend. Additionally Joe Lee Middlebrooks ran those March races and he is solidly 6 to 8th on the Miller Cup grid. He finished behind Robin with both in AI cars at the time.

 

I see you are not very impressed with NASA SE AI cars, but the Steeda 21 car is a championship level car/driver.

[jp99gt]

I was MO and watched the qualifying/race on Saturday. The MCM cars are interesting. I expected some ground pounding sounds, but the exhaust was drowned out in the corners by the BFG noises - later I found out they have long tube headers but a pretty stock catback system. As a spectator, that was disappointing.

 

Those tires show a lot of grip, but the drivers had to be careful to not slide much and wear them out. Smoothness was a key trait all the top 5 or 6 drivers showed, and the midpack/end of pack guys tended to slide the cars around more (setup or driving technique, not sure - but the sliding was obvious). One midpack car blew a right rear out and spun out at the top of the little hill by station 8. He could have cut a tire, but he was in the group that was pushing the tires harder by his line and driving technique.

 

Qualifying on Saturday had a 1:36.011 pole time by Jamie Sloan. First & second place ran consistent 1:36.2-5's for race laps by my stopwatch. Jamie Sloan almost gave away 1st place with two laps to go at T6 at the end of the back straight, as he slid out but caught it before hitting the grass. Second place Caddell got 3/4 side by side with him, but Jamie went into the up/downhill left turn on the inside of that and pulled away to keep first. Those two drove well, lap after lap, and put on a great show.

 

The spec part of this series seems to keep the cars pretty well even, as the field was pretty close and driving ability seemed to be the key. But AI seems to be about the same speed, maybe faster if they used BFG tires, and probably for a lot less money. Spending $75k on a MCM car seems high for what you get, when a decent AI car should be a lot less. But the field full of S197 cars looks impressive and probably more crowd pleasing. This is a nice showcase event for Ford.

 

The engines are stock 4.6L, but are sealed by Ford and then dyno tested. The 273 rwhp sounds about right, as the engines are rated around 325 and the 15% transmission drop puts you near 275hp.

[ST#97]

 

I see you are not very impressed with NASA SE AI cars, but the Steeda 21 car is a championship level car/driver.

 

I am only going by other's accounts and have not seen the proof for myself, so I could be wrong...

 

However, ask the boys from Colorado about what they saw this weekend! Give em' some time as they are probably tired as hell from the haul home but they got a front row seat of the Winged Warriors from Texas! LOTS of good racing this weekend in Hallett!!!