mid ohio mustang challenge 3600 lb 300 rwhp run ai times

[robbodleimages]

 

I see you are not very impressed with NASA SE AI cars, but the Steeda 21 car is a championship level car/driver.

 

I am only going by other's accounts and have not seen the proof for myself, so I could be wrong...

 

However, ask the boys from Colorado about what they saw this weekend! Give em' some time as they are probably tired as hell from the haul home but they got a front row seat of the Winged Warriors from Texas! LOTS of good racing this weekend in Hallett!!!

 

I'd also add that yer boy Burch ran with us(SE) at Barber where none of us except Brownie had any laps at all and Desalvo broke in the first session.

 

Why not come to Road Atlanta and see the real thing?

[Jeff F]

If all goes well this year, expect the AI lap times at MO to be in the 33's... There are 4 cars in our region that could do it and 2 are headed to MO.

So 4 cars from your region can run 3 seconds a lap faster than David Donovan did last year. Impressive.

 

BUT, I think the hype about the MCM cars is just that, Hype to sell cars and get the series off the ground. Maybe we need to hire their marketing guy for NASA?!!!

I don't think that there was ever any comaprison of a FR500S and an AI car by anyone trying to sell the series or cars. All of the speculation has been here. Running within 2 seconds of the Koni GS cars at Mosport is a more impressive feat anyway.

[Jeff F]

I have a question about their suspension geometries. It looks like they are running anywhere from 0.5" to 1.0" of a drop compared to a stock S197. In all the pictures I've seen of their suspension (not great ones, but enough detail to see pickup points) it looks like they are running the stock pickup points. No drop brackets for the rear LCA axle mounts, no raised front LCA points.

No hardpoints have been moved. Note that they are on relatively short tires (by S197 standards), so they appear lower than they really are from a geometry standpoint.

Is this indeed true? Is the rear axle roll-understeer something that can be worked around with spring rates?

The geometry and spring rates cannot be changed, so it is up to the teams to determine what the optimal ride heights are.

[Red Tornado]

This has gotten interesting.

Depending on the tracks the MC cars are at top driver pace looking at there track times.

 

Road atlanta was wet and I blew my motor and Robin was new to the track so not a fair comparison. M-O seems pretty damn on with our times. I ran barber with Joe Lee and we were battling all weekend and I ran times that were only a few seconds off of GS Koni pace.

 

As for 33's at nationals. I don't care what you have done but there was only 4 of us who ran in the 36's all week consistently. You think someone found 3 seconds on a 90 second course.

 

Bring those cars up and we'll see how it goes. Sounds like TX should have the top 5 spots then no problem.

[Chim-Chim]

I have a question about their suspension geometries. It looks like they are running anywhere from 0.5" to 1.0" of a drop compared to a stock S197. In all the pictures I've seen of their suspension (not great ones, but enough detail to see pickup points) it looks like they are running the stock pickup points. No drop brackets for the rear LCA axle mounts, no raised front LCA points.

No hardpoints have been moved. Note that they are on relatively short tires (by S197 standards), so they appear lower than they really are from a geometry standpoint.

Is this indeed true? Is the rear axle roll-understeer something that can be worked around with spring rates?

The geometry and spring rates cannot be changed, so it is up to the teams to determine what the optimal ride heights are.

 

 

Thanks, Jeff. Do you know if their suspension pieces be available for purchase by the general public through Ford Racing? I imagine the coilover setup will be pricey, but one can dream...

[Jeff F]

Do you know if their suspension pieces be available for purchase by the general public through Ford Racing? I imagine the coilover setup will be pricey, but one can dream...

The struts/shocks are available. M-18000-E, street price is just under $5K, without springs or camber plates. M-18183-B is the camber plate. You'll also need the rear shock clevis kit, since these shocks have a bearing up top instead of a stud mount. Don't recall the P/N but it's available. And you'll need a 2-3/8" hole saw...

[ST#97]

As for 33's at nationals. I don't care what you have done but there was only 4 of us who ran in the 36's all week consistently. You think someone found 3 seconds on a 90 second course.

 

Bring those cars up and we'll see how it goes. Sounds like TX should have the top 5 spots then no problem.

 

And who was talking 34's earlier in THIS thread... sort of thought that was the norm so I guess I should go look at your times.... and yeah, Donovan has gotten fast as crap in the last 3 events driving like a mad man... he was under the track record at hallett in qual this weekend with no front splitter and air temps nearing 100...old record was set in the 60's... hell, he was over a second under the lap record at cresson a couple months back...

 

Oh, and careful what you ask for on the TX performance at nationals....you might just get it!

 

As for the speculation on the MMC cars and AI cars....it was part of the S197 layout in GRM this month...just got mine a couple days ago so you might not have read that yet.

[Pat L.]

Gents, 33's at Nationals isn't really a pipe dream. But I think this year would be the optimum time to do it. The R888 tire is a few ticks slower and you can count on it taking a full season of use before compeititors are optimizing its characteristics.

 

IMO, comparing Miller Cup Challenge cars to AI cars is akin to comparing the girl next door to Jessica Alba. MC cars are showroom stock, spec cars that are fairly blunt instruments meant to promote driver talent. AI rules allow us the use of great tools in making production-based cars haul ass, however, it's not in my interests to say how

 

If I may throw something against the wall here... I think a better way to come up with a bench racing time for AI cars, Keeping in mind the AI rules, would be to compare AI cars to Speed touring cars. They run the same tire compound, are allowed most of the same liesures in the rules as AI yet have more restrictions on aero and certain aspects of the suspension. Touring Cars make about 250hp to the wheels, with the bimmers making ~270; keep in mind these are small bore motors making far less torque than AI cars. Most of the cars weigh ~2800 with driver, have nominal aero, and run a smaller 235 toyo. Both have similar track widths (TC's have slightly longer wheel bases). Compared to an AI car at similar weight: 294hp/310ft.lbs., 275 tire, more aero (hopefully).

 

Last year at Mid O, the touring cars ran in the 33's in qualifying with 34's being a common race lap; fast times were high 32's. This year they should be about a second slower on the R888. So in my estimation, a 33 second AI lap on RA1's is pretty attainable. If a guy or lady were to use all of an optimized car, I think some folks would be very surprised.

 

And let me be clear that this is in no way meant to take anything away from the competitors of years past. I have the highest respect for their acheivments and obvious talent.

[ST#97]

Gents, 33's at Nationals isn't really a pipe dream. But I think this year would be the optimum time to do it. The R888 tire is a few ticks slower and you can count on it taking a full season of use before compeititors are optimizing its characteristics.

 

IMO, comparing Miller Cup Challenge cars to AI cars is akin to comparing the girl next door to Jessica Alba. MC cars are showroom stock, spec cars that are fairly blunt instruments meant to promote driver talent. AI rules allow us the use of great tools in making production-based cars haul ass, however, it's not in my interests to say how

 

If I may throw something against the wall here... I think a better way to come up with a bench racing time for AI cars, Keeping in mind the AI rules, would be to compare AI cars to Speed touring cars. They run the same tire compound, are allowed most of the same liesures in the rules as AI yet have more restrictions on aero and certain aspects of the suspension. Touring Cars make about 250hp to the wheels, with the bimmers making ~270; keep in mind these are small bore motors making far less torque than AI cars. Most of the cars weigh ~2800 with driver, have nominal aero, and run a smaller 235 toyo. Both have similar track widths (TC's have slightly longer wheel bases). Compared to an AI car at similar weight: 294hp/310ft.lbs., 275 tire, more aero (hopefully).

 

Last year at Mid O, the touring cars ran in the 33's in qualifying with 34's being a common race lap; fast times were high 32's. This year they should be about a second slower on the R888. So in my estimation, a 33 second AI lap on RA1's is pretty attainable. If a guy or lady were to use all of an optimized car, I think some folks would be very surprised.

 

And let me be clear that this is in no way meant to take anything away from the competitors of years past. I have the highest respect for their acheivments and obvious talent.

 

See, I knew I was right!

 

Very interesting data Pat...especially the part about the R888 being slower. Are you saying that is a factor of still learning the tire and in time will be as fast or faster than an RA1, or is it just going to be slower period?

[wbrownie]

All I can say is that having built an S197 AI car (albeit from a showroom GT with 8 miles which increased the cost from buying as used car today) $75K is not a bad deal. We had quite the learning curve and my suspension is nowhere near the FR500S.

 

The big splitter and wing made a big difference on my car. My suspension is amateur hour compared to the 500S.

 

My fast lap at Nationals last year was a 37.2. That's with 340hp (significantly less torque) at the wheels and shitty stock brakes.

 

Put bigger brakes, FR500S suspension...that's worth a 1 to 2 seconds at least. Add in the R1 tires and 33s here we come.

 

As other have stated and I am biased, the S197 has ALOT of potential.

 

Won't be at Nationals this year but may try to make a few races before the year is out.

[wbrownie]

Do you know if their suspension pieces be available for purchase by the general public through Ford Racing? I imagine the coilover setup will be pricey, but one can dream...

The struts/shocks are available. M-18000-E, street price is just under $5K, without springs or camber plates. M-18183-B is the camber plate. You'll also need the rear shock clevis kit, since these shocks have a bearing up top instead of a stud mount. Don't recall the P/N but it's available. And you'll need a 2-3/8" hole saw...

 

Jeff,

 

Just found the parts list the other day. Very interesting. A bit rich for now but maybe someday.

 

Hope all is well.

 

Bill

[King Matt]

I was talking to Jason Saini at VIR about the R888s and he said that overall he thought it was a faster tire, but that Tri Point had the advantage of off-season testing to figure it out, which did take some work. I've heard similar comments from the Realtime Acura team. I think the top teams with resources to test had leg up on those teams that didn't.

 

One thing to consider when comparing AI to SPEED TC, is that the TC cars are running sequential gearboxes.

[ST#97]

I was talking to Jason Saini at VIR about the R888s and he said that overall he thought it was a faster tire, but that Tri Point had the advantage of off-season testing to figure it out, which did take some work. I've heard similar comments from the Realtime Acura team. I think the top teams with resources to test had leg up on those teams that didn't.

 

One thing to consider when comparing AI to SPEED TC, is that the TC cars are running sequential gearboxes.

 

Well, after speaking with a couple top Spec Miata guys and the guy who has recently started kicking my arse lately...I think I have been going in the wrong direction with the RA1's regarding tire pressures...time to start working back the other direction I guess. Will just have to see at the next event how it works out. Thanks to toyo bucks, a set of 888's will be headed my way shortly for some offseason testing between our remaining events in prep for 09'.

[Pat L.]

I was talking to Jason Saini at VIR about the R888s and he said that overall he thought it was a faster tire, but that Tri Point had the advantage of off-season testing to figure it out, which did take some work. I've heard similar comments from the Realtime Acura team. I think the top teams with resources to test had leg up on those teams that didn't.

 

One thing to consider when comparing AI to SPEED TC, is that the TC cars are running sequential gearboxes.

 

Matt, the R888's do shine in certain areas, but they are undoubtedly slower than the RA1. Taking into consideration the amount of development that occurs throughout a season and during the off season... fast forward to the season opener at Sebring and the touring cars and GT cars were a full 2-3 seconds off the previous year's times. Now, we did find some molding irregularities in the first few sets we ran so that may have contributed in some small way to slower laptimes, but in general the nearly 20 year old RA1's are faster. **** edit: Matt, I stand corrected, the R888's aren't quite that much slower and the gap is more prevalent in qualifying. Race laps seem to be pretty similar with the nod going to the RA1. So I suppose when we figure out how to qualify on the R888's they should be in the ballpark. However, for our AI and CMC cars... might take us a while to see similar RA1 lap times.

 

The difference in lap times between the kind of sequential boxes ran in touring and the h-pattern boxes in AI shouldn't be more than a few tenths of a second. Touring car drivers still have to lift to upshift and Realtime/Bimmerworld guys appear to use the clutch when downshifting... the bimmers and Audi's had h-pattern boxes when they ran on RA1's. Of course the "real" gain in going to the dogring boxes with sequential shifting action was to improve reliability.

[onralz]

I was talking to Jason Saini at VIR about the R888s and he said that overall he thought it was a faster tire, but that Tri Point had the advantage of off-season testing to figure it out, which did take some work. I've heard similar comments from the Realtime Acura team. I think the top teams with resources to test had leg up on those teams that didn't.

 

One thing to consider when comparing AI to SPEED TC, is that the TC cars are running sequential gearboxes.

 

Well, after speaking with a couple top Spec Miata guys and the guy who has recently started kicking my arse lately...I think I have been going in the wrong direction with the RA1's regarding tire pressures...time to start working back the other direction I guess. Will just have to see at the next event how it works out. Thanks to toyo bucks, a set of 888's will be headed my way shortly for some offseason testing between our remaining events in prep for 09'.

 

Care to share which way you are headed?

[onralz]

I was talking to Jason Saini at VIR about the R888s and he said that overall he thought it was a faster tire, but that Tri Point had the advantage of off-season testing to figure it out, which did take some work. I've heard similar comments from the Realtime Acura team. I think the top teams with resources to test had leg up on those teams that didn't.

 

One thing to consider when comparing AI to SPEED TC, is that the TC cars are running sequential gearboxes.

 

Well, after speaking with a couple top Spec Miata guys and the guy who has recently started kicking my arse lately...I think I have been going in the wrong direction with the RA1's regarding tire pressures...time to start working back the other direction I guess. Will just have to see at the next event how it works out. Thanks to toyo bucks, a set of 888's will be headed my way shortly for some offseason testing between our remaining events in prep for 09'.

 

Care to share which way you are headed?

Just kidding, keep your secrets.

[ST#97]

Care to share which way you are headed?

 

No problem! You just need to run with NO air in your tires!

 

From the sound of it Pat, the 888's take a while to heat up maybe? Care to share how shaved you guys are starting them at...I have heard a lot of guys in that series shave to 2/32 for a fresh set every weekend.

[Chim-Chim]

Do you know if their suspension pieces be available for purchase by the general public through Ford Racing? I imagine the coilover setup will be pricey, but one can dream...

The struts/shocks are available. M-18000-E, street price is just under $5K, without springs or camber plates. M-18183-B is the camber plate. You'll also need the rear shock clevis kit, since these shocks have a bearing up top instead of a stud mount. Don't recall the P/N but it's available. And you'll need a 2-3/8" hole saw...

 

Gah...gah...gah... I don't mind the cutting, but that is a little outside of my budget right now.

[Red Tornado]

I do agree no one has build close to the perfect AI car yet.

Driver placement, aero, perfect motor combo, etc.. has yet to be raced consistently or at all in my mind.

 

But 3 seconds on a 90 second course is a hell of alot and I don't consider the top AI drivers to be pathetically slower than a pro shoe. I like your touring comparison and think that is fair except for factory level testing and setup which no one in AI has (I don't think at least) so that is likely worth something also in times.

My gear change, better brakes, and a better alignment for M-O should help me so who knows maybe I will be running 33's by the sunday race.

[Pat L.]

I do agree no one has build close to the perfect AI car yet.

Driver placement, aero, perfect motor combo, etc.. has yet to be raced consistently or at all in my mind.

 

But 3 seconds on a 90 second course is a hell of alot and I don't consider the top AI drivers to be pathetically slower than a pro shoe. I like your touring comparison and think that is fair except for factory level testing and setup which no one in AI has (I don't think at least) so that is likely worth something also in times.

My gear change, better brakes, and a better alignment for M-O should help me so who knows maybe I will be running 33's by the sunday race.

 

Agreed, 3 seconds is a lifetime on a ~95 second course. I don't know if anyone is going to go from zero to hero in one year (usually doesn't work like that), but we'll be there soon. A big part of the reason I chose to run AI was because the level of talent participating was/is, IMO, the highest in NASA competition. I watched those early West Coast battles and knew I had to do that one day. So, no, AI guys don't leave anything on the table.

 

Qualifying the R888 is a little tricky and I know my team hasn't quite wrapped our head around it. The tire can be very good cold though!

[King Matt]

The fast times last year were in the 1:35.9 range, so 33s are really only 2 seconds away!

[Red Tornado]

I should be in 35's this year I feel but don't know how much more I can muster after that.

 

Just looking to have a ton of fun like last year. Running well is always a plus though but it's a great group of folks and alot of fun running.

[D Algozine]

Just curious, but why should we expect lap times to decrease by more then 2 seconds?

I'm not aware of lap times falling by over 2 seconds in AI all over the country. So what has changed that makes people believe they will drop so much this year at MO? I'm not aware of any signigicant rule changes. This isn't a new track.

[robbodleimages]

Just curious, but why should we expect lap times to decrease by more then 2 seconds?

I'm not aware of lap times falling by over 2 seconds in AI all over the country. So what has changed that makes people believe they will drop so much this year at MO? I'm not aware of any signigicant rule changes. This isn't a new track.

 

One word. Huberous.

[King Matt]

You mean hubris or humorous?