mbuskuhl Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 Anyone else seen the changes in the CCR? Ouch.... • Bladders older than 5 years should not be used, no exceptions. • As a January 1, 2009 the competitor will be responsible for showing proof of the age of the bladder. It is highly recommended that the receipt for the purchase of the bladder (or entire cell) be stored with the Vehicle Logbook. Other changes include.... As of January 1, 2009 no new logbooks will be issued for vehicles with a fuel cell, unless the fuel cell is FIA FT3 (or higher) certified. As of January 1, 2012 all fuel cells must be 56 FIA FT3 (or higher) certified, regardless of the date of purchase or date of the logbook issuance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Simard Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 What?! The effect in reality will be to reduce fuel cell usage. Since they aren't required this just adds a burden and reasons not to for anyone deciding how safe their car is going to be. A 6 year old fuel cell bladder or one that isn't certified to the latest spec is much safer than a decades old stock fuel tank with no can protection and vulnerable fuel outlets and filler tubes. Unless they plan to force all cars to use cells they've just guaranteed that much fewer cars will. Is there anyone to direct comments towards on this? I'm very keen on fire safety and feel the wording and requirements for fuel cell changes are flawed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce L. Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 [email protected] is the big cheese fuel cells degrade faster than steel tanks What?! The effect in reality will be to reduce fuel cell usage. Since they aren't required this just adds a burden and reasons not to for anyone deciding how safe their car is going to be.A 6 year old fuel cell bladder or one that isn't certified to the latest spec is much safer than a decades old stock fuel tank with no can protection and vulnerable fuel outlets and filler tubes. Unless they plan to force all cars to use cells they've just guaranteed that much fewer cars will. Is there anyone to direct comments towards on this? I'm very keen on fire safety and feel the wording and requirements for fuel cell changes are flawed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Simard Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 [email protected] is the big cheese fuel cells degrade faster than steel tanks Thanks, I emailed Jerry. Some discussion on this might be good. Not all cars have steel tanks, some are plastic and some have horrendus outlet/fill placement that is vulnerable. Since cells aren't mandated the strictness of the changes make them less likely to be used. Requiring bladders to be newer than 5 years isn't bad, it's the refusal to logbook a car or the banning of certain cells after 2012 that sounds harsh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingDog Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 Mike, I had the same thoughts. Our tanks are more resilient than most, but they are sticking out in a place where they could easily be crushed, punctured or have the neck snapped off. A right rear hit with much force will almost certainly dump fuel and cost us a $200-300 used tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbuskuhl Posted July 2, 2008 Author Share Posted July 2, 2008 I am against the 5 year rule on bladders. You have to change the foam as it deteriorates, but the bladder? Give me a break. I have an FIA FT3 cell now but am not interested in changing the bladder. Cells are not even required for many classes and you have cars running around with 25 year old gas tanks right now. There is no consistency in this "safety" thinking. Did NASA or some other organization recently have some type of fuel cell incident I haven't heard about? Up next will be changing out your Hans device every 5 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingDog Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 I am against the 5 year rule on bladders. You have to change the foam as it deteriorates, but the bladder? Give me a break.Are the bladders made the same as light aircraft bladders? Don't they normally last 20+ years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbuskuhl Posted July 2, 2008 Author Share Posted July 2, 2008 I did a little research. This rule isn't getting changed. The FIA specifically calls out bladders are good for only 5 years. I think the frustrating thing is that NASA is going to make you document the fuel bladder age, just like nets and belts. To top it off, for some reason 25+ year old gas tanks are still acceptable but not a 6 year fuel cell bladder? A Fuel Safe Sportsman Cell FIA FT3 certified for example has a "Double Coated Flexible Nylon Fabric Bladder" which has a 3 year warranty. http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/1318480865__FIA_Stand_FT3_1999_tank.pdf No fuel bladders shall be used for more than 5 years after the date of manufacture, unless reinspected and recertified by the manufacturer at the end of this 5 year period, for a supplementary period of up to 2 years after the date of recertification not exceeding 7 years after the date of manufacture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Simard Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 We're following FIA now? There is alot to fuel cell varieties, my info could be obsolete so please correct it. IIRC the only proper fuel cells are Fuel Safe and ATL. They have different bladder types in their product lineups but not all are coated fabric. I use a common ATL Sports Cell which is marked as "FT3 approved" but I don't believe it uses a coated fabric type of bladder as the FIA document mentioned. Beats me. It's still vastly better than some milk jugs being sold as "fuel cells" in hot rod shops. I don't think there's anything wrong with the CCR suggesting what to use without requiring it. We're all reasonable, well intentioned people in NASA. I actually did do most things that were suggested but not required when building my car to the 2007 CCR. There are big differences between NASA and FIA aside from the leaders dressing up in nazi uniforms for S&M sessions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveD Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 All cell bladders are some type of fabric that is coated with a companies proprietary coating.ATL has a tan bladder for the lower priced models and a black material for the higher end cells,but they both are fabric underneath.Fuel cell bladders do deteriate,I have a sports racer in the shop now that had to have it's 7 year old bladder replaced as it just "came apart at the seams",literally.The fabric coating degraded to a point as to just peel away from the fabric,the foam?Forget about it,it just crumbled in my hands.The point is,the cell is just one more item in the car that should be regularly checked and inspected in the off season,don't just install it and forget about it,5 years can go by very quickly ! Dave D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swhiteh3 Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 I don't want to drag the entire discussion into another room - this is the place to have it since it affects all cars, but there is some discussion in the American Iron area about this rule that might interest some people, as well as some proposals and tech. For background, the Mustang "bolt-in" replacement cells made by FuelSafe essentially do not have replacement bladders - they're nearly $2000 to replace. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renntag Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Here is a link to the thread mentioned above. (so this new thread might be easier to understand. ) It seems there are reasonable solutions for far less than 2K$. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22880 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Simard Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 All cell bladders are some type of fabric that is coated with a companies proprietary coating.ATL has a tan bladder for the lower priced models and a black material for the higher end cells,but they both are fabric underneath.Fuel cell bladders do deteriate,I have a sports racer in the shop now that had to have it's 7 year old bladder replaced as it just "came apart at the seams",literally.The fabric coating degraded to a point as to just peel away from the fabric,the foam?Forget about it,it just crumbled in my hands.The point is,the cell is just one more item in the car that should be regularly checked and inspected in the off season,don't just install it and forget about it,5 years can go by very quickly ! Dave D. Dave, it's my understanding that not all the bladders are coated fabric but some are rotary molded. Since rotary molded was implied to me as being considered a problem by NASA and since the FIA document specifically says coated fabric I asked ATL about it. The replied with a list of bladders homolgated by FIA which included the ones I asked about. I'd be glad to share it but wasn't able to attatch the pdf here. It might be trivial but if the term 'rotary molded' or 'coated fabric' is used instead of 'FIA FT3' in a the CCR than there might be a conflict. FIA's use of the term 'coated fabric' in the FT3 general requirements does seem to be a mistake, they homolgate a variety of bladder types to the standard. Speaking of bladder types, what's up with fires and leaking bladders? My first thought when I heard that was that it was odd that of all the possibilties for poor fuel line/pump/cell installation that a leaking bladder would be the culprit in a fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadracerwhite Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 So are the FUELSAFE ENDURO cells legal then? http://www.fuelsafe.com/pdf/RoadRacing.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; They are a rotary molded but cary the FIA-FT3 rating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Simard Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 I found that approved bladder list as a link: http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/1A74D70C21A83DD0C1257460004CA339/$FILE/L1_Approved_materials_tank.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neukin Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Sounds like a good business to get into. Heck lets make everyone replace them every 1 year, why wait 5! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMan Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 Bah. Guess I'll dig up an old stock tank and give it a coat of Eastwood tank-tin or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renntag Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 Will that hold up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMan Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Will that hold up? Depends on what you mean by that phrase, I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renntag Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Applying that coating to your tank, is there any risk of failure? Will it hold up to the job at hand ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMan Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Well, the tank-tin part was mostly a joke. But, I would be serious about the stock tank part, at least as long as AI allows them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobKaser#90 Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 so what was the verdict on the "rotary molded" type cells? I have that type of ATL cell in my car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadracerwhite Posted August 16, 2008 Share Posted August 16, 2008 I think the bottom line is if it is FIA-FT3 rated it is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 Here's a preview of the new race car Log Books that everyone will be issued in 2010: That should be up to the task of holding everything that will be required by then. (in hindsight, I really wish I 'd kept such good records on my car. K-Briefs would be awesome to have after 6-7 years of playing.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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