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L98Terror

I'm proposing a new Super Touring/TT Class, Thoughts?

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L98Terror

Last weekend at Mid-Ohio we had the pleasure of running with TCC (Touring Corvette for Challenge) TCCRacing.com, this was the first time they ran with NASA and they had a blast. ST1 had 8 cars & ST2 had 8 cars those were the biggest fields I've seen out side of Nationals. They said they have had up to 24 cars running TCC. The issue I think is classing, most TCC Prepared cars are in the 6.5-7.0 :1 range which is fine unless you are running against 5.5:1 car.

 

If we look at lap time TTA vs TTS they are so close yet there is a big jump to TTU

 

 

This is my thought

 

we could look at the current classes

PTA/TTA is almost a 8.7:1 anyways so just loosen those rules

ST2 move to 7.0:1

ST1 leave at 5.5

 

 

 

Now trying to not upset those that built TTS & TTA cars I suggest we just add a class.

 

PTA/TTA As is

ST3 8.7:1

ST2 7.0:1

ST1 5.5:1

 

 

Really there has to be something between 5.5 & 8.7 on a 3300# car that's 379 RWHP vs 600 RWHP wouldn't a car with 470 make a nice class.

 

Just sit back and watch the cars flock.

 

Thoughts, TCC guys chime in

Edited by Guest

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kbrew8991

its fine where it is because PTA is still constrained by points while ST2 is *only* constrained by pw:weight.

 

we've yet to see a 10/10thsST2 build, some good ones yeah, but not ones that exploit every advantage... and moving targets piss people off and push them to compete elsewhere

 

add ballast, pull of a part or two.. both... or built for ST1

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L98Terror
its fine where it is because PTA is still constrained by points while ST2 is *only* constrained by pw:weight.

 

we've yet to see a 10/10thsST2 build, some good ones yeah, but not ones that exploit every advantage... and moving targets pee-piddily-diddily people off and push them to compete elsewhere

 

add ballast, pull of a part or two.. both... or built for ST1

 

 

I'm not suggesting changing PTA or ST2 just adding something in between ST1 & ST2

 

We currently have an entire class competeing elsewhere let's welcome them.

 

You make it sound way to simple, a 3300 lb car that's at 7.0:1 would need to add 700 lbs to drop down to ST2, I'm pretty sure that's not even allowed.

 

There is a huge gap between a car built to the limit of ST2 and ST1.

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Shawn M.

PTA/TTA As is

ST3 8.7:1

ST2 7.0:1

ST1 5.5:1

 

 

If TTA/PTA is close to 8.7:1 and ST3 is 8.7:1..... thats darn near the same class. Why split the hair?

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kbrew8991

7.1 is right between the two...

 

I guess its time to see if there is a market for a 3rd class??

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Spectator Racing

I think it's a viable idea, but obviously needs to be thoroughly considered. ST and TTS/U are significantly different than PT or TTA-G due to the simplicity of the rules. Ken's not suggesting make PTA and TTA a power to weight class, that defeats the purpose of starting with street cars and modifying them.

 

If you start with any HP at all, it's very hard to stay within the ST2 rules. Even still, I've really only seen Corvettes show up at all, then in ST1 you get a few Vipers now and then. The jump from ST2 to ST1 is huge, even at Nationals last year I would estimate that many of the ST1 cars were not right at 5.5:1. There were some Speed WC cars there, those are more in the 6.5:1 range.

 

The risk is splitting up the already sparse regional ST1/2 fields by adding a third class. Perhaps there are other solutions, like reviving the Vette/Viper challenge that NASA used to have a few years ago.

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kbrew8991

VVC excludes tons of other cars that currently run TTS & U that would be graduating to ST1 & 2 at some point... plus alot of existing ST cars aren't Corvettes or Vipers

 

PTA and ST2 do need to be separate, thats a definite

Edited by Guest

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L98Terror

PTA/TTA As is

ST3 8.7:1

ST2 7.0:1

ST1 5.5:1

 

 

If TTA/PTA is close to 8.7:1 and ST3 is 8.7:1..... thats darn near the same class. Why split the hair?

 

I guess you split hairs because those classes already exist, last year at nationals most of the top running TTA cars were just above 8.7 : 1, like 8.75 : 1. The difference is when you go to TTS/ST2 then every other mod is legal except HP/lb.

 

There are also a ton of corvettes out there with engine mods, also any mod sends them right to TTU/ST1 but nearly none of them are at 5.5:1, there's a big no mans land.

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RAFTRACER

Problem with all of this is being that we are jsut now starting to have fields of reasonable size in ST1 and ST2. Hell only one event here in Great Lakes (last weekend). Adding a 3rd class before large participation in either seems like a good way to thin out the other two classes entries. I am not saying that there shouldn't be a class in between, but not for reasons of someone just bought and new car and, not because some other guys from a different sanctioning body want to immediately fit and be competitive. Sure it was great that the TCC guys came and played with us last weekend, but there are alot of people (myself included) that have spent large $$$$ preparing cars for existing classes.

 

And as far as the prepared TTS (or ST2) vs. TTA cars go, there was one TTS car (running TTU) at MO running low 31's with a busted gearbox........TTS and ST2 cars are about to go sub 30's at Mid-Ohio

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kbrew8991

as I said in the related thread in the TT section - moving the targets for TTS/ST2 and TTU/ST1 is the worst thing we can do. In no way would I sign off, encourage, endorse, or condone that

 

I'm on the fence if there should be a step in-between is all I don't think it would upset the applecart of the current S, U & ST competitors.. but I don't know how well subscribed it might be either. the jump from 8.7 to 5.5 is pretty large though

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Falcon
If you start with any HP at all, it's very hard to stay within the ST2 rules. Even still, I've really only seen Corvettes show up at all, then in ST1 you get a few Vipers now and then. The jump from ST2 to ST1 is huge, even at Nationals last year I would estimate that many of the ST1 cars were not right at 5.5:1.

 

In our Southeast and Mid Atlantic region we get a pretty good varitey of cars in the ST2 class. Panoz, Caddy CTSV, Factory Five Cobras, Vipers, RX7, EVO's, Subies and Vettes. Seems to me that's what we want.

 

At the Nationals last year we had 13 ST2 entrants. 3-Factory 5 Cobras, 1-Caddy CTSV, 1-Audi (DQ'd), 4-RX-7's, 3 Corvettes, 1 SRT Neon. That's a hell of a variety. Don't mess with ST-2.

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kbrew8991

I don't think anyone is advocating that Jody, we're just asking if there needs to be a class between ST1 and ST2 is all

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TexaST-1

I agree with the position of ST-2. 8.7 is right were it needs to be. Most of the expiring T1 cars from the SCCA fit that spot with almost no changes.

 

I do think ST-1 is a bit far off with 5.5. For me to break in to the 5.5s at this point will take cubic dollars. I think most ST-1 cars are well above the 5.5 min and those that actually hit 5.5 through additions probably should in reality be SU anyway. I think most ST-1 cars average about 6.0 +/- .2.

 

I don't think the TCC Corvettes are too far off the actual mark for ST-1.

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Z06RACER

I agree with Kevin.

My car right now is at 6.46. to get more hp or lose more weight is cost prohibitive, or won't allow me to run any SCCA events. I'm thinking about trying slicks at the national, but I'm torn because Hoosier has such a great contigency program.

Maybe just bring ST-1 back to 6.0...and have everything below that SU.

I've run with the TCC guys for a couple of years. Everyone of those cars will fit nicely into ST1 or 2. They may have to do a couple of things to get the most out of the cars; but those boys are pretty resourceful....they'll adapt!!! Don't go worrying about them

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Weed Wacker

I agree with original idea that there should be three ST classes. The ST-2 that we have now would remain the same, just be renamed ST-3 or whatever. Then the new class with the new adjusted power to weight ratio of 7.1:1 or so. Then ST-1 would remain the same as well. It would serve as a good middle ground for people not full of those cubic dollars that we hear exist but almost none of us know what they are like.

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David M. Pintaric
I agree with original idea that there should be three ST classes. The ST-2 that we have now would remain the same, just be renamed ST-3 or whatever. Then the new class with the new adjusted power to weight ratio of 7.1:1 or so. Then ST-1 would remain the same as well. It would serve as a good middle ground for people not full of those cubic dollars that we hear exist but almost none of us know what they are like.

 

I am not full of cubic dollars, so I guess I am one of those you speak of...sorta like Big Foot...

 

A stock Viper "unrestricted" but computer tuned makes 480 RWHP. A 7.1 ratio with that RWHP means a Viper needs to weight 3408...very do-able, thank you. BTW, I just described a SCCA ST car...like a C6 Z06...or a F430 Ferrari.

 

Restricted my car makes 430 RWHP, to make the "8.7" class I need to weight 3650-3700 lbs. That's alot! I'd love to be able to take all those weight plates out of my car.

 

Just a thought...

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TexaST-1

Hello David, are you gonna play with us?

 

3 ST classes would dilute the class participation numbers.

 

ST-2 at 8.7:1 is fine right at T1

ST-1 at 6.0:1 is better. Reasonably modified cars

ST-? at 5.5 would leave a few cars. Most cars that are past 6.0:1 would just dial our cars back to stay in the class. IMO

 

I am at 6.15:1, Difficult to do better without a huge cash infusion. I am at 3200 with driver 520RWHP. New Race engine $10-15K+ = 3200/570=5.61 or carbon body and lexan 3200-200lbs and $20K = 3000 lbs-520=5.76.

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kbrew8991

It might dilute ST1 a bit... but overall I think ST as a whole might gain...??

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L98Terror
It might dilute ST1 a bit... but overall I think ST as a whole might gain...??

 

 

Agreed, I think it might dilute ST1 a lot but I think the over all gain would be gain huge. A 6.0 car could have a shot at ST1 but a 7.0 car isn't even in the game, at least not nationally.

 

 

Who makes this call? They should be in the loop

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Greg G.

Of course we will look at these numbers after the Championships. However, there are currently not enough cars to support 3 ST classes and SU, either regionally or Nationally. There are plenty of Vettes, Vipers, Porsches that are right at 5.5 and 5.6:1. Cars that are between 5.5 and 6:1 will not be competitive on a National basis with the Super Unlimited cars that are generally running at 3:1 to 4.5:1 at the top levels, especially since the top cars are now generally the Sports Racers. We do not have enough Sports Racers to have a separate class for them. ST with the current adjusted wt/power ratios is the fastest growing race series in NASA. The current levels provide for excellent cross-over between multiple current race classes. Lastly, these are expensive classes to run in, regardless of whether it is ST1 or ST2. Those that have built and are currently building their cars for the rules (i.e. to be competitive on a National basis), as well as those that are potential future drivers for these series, expect to have rule stability to keep the costs and labor of "re-building" down.

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Greg G.

Who makes this call? They should be in the loop

 

That would be the National ST Director and the NASA Executives. And, we are always "in the loop".

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TexaST-1

I do agree with Greg on the class being expensive to run, however, I think I spend less to run faster than when I was racing in T1.

 

I disagree with the statement that there are "Many" cars at 5.5:1 in ST-1. I think they are relatively few, I can only think of one. Most of the cars I put together 5.5 sheets on are Factory Built Race Cars.

 

AS I stated before most of us run closer to 5.8-6.2:1. That being said, I will be competitive at the championship with a 6.2:1. I don't think it is necessary to be at the 5.5 to compete. If a good professional driver shows up with a front line factory car they only way we can stop from being mopped up is to take him out on his way back around. For those of you who don't know me that was a joke or was it....

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kbrew8991

Greg - no one would be forced to "build down" to ST1.5... if they choose to do it and then b%$ about it, well... the door is right over there

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David M. Pintaric
Hello David, are you gonna play with us?

 

Kevin,

 

I am registered for the September race, but hae yet to get races 3, 4 and 5 in. I plan on doing so at Road Atlanta next month. My big crash in May really screwed up my schedule and my plans for this year, but if things go right I will get everything I planned done this year. The only barrier I may be facing is my wife's health is an issue (not too serious, likely gall bladder), so that may cause so issues with running the races I need to be at.

 

We will see.

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David Fazzino

The northeast region has 7 to 8 ST-2 cars running. It's a great class that allows fast cars with moderate expenses. Development continues for cars to reach the limit of hp/wght. I believe the class will be the most competitive at the nationals. Lets see how the year finishes before we discuss changing the series. David Fazzino #101 Evolution 8

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