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I'm proposing a new Super Touring/TT Class, Thoughts?


L98Terror

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Remember this is club racing or amateur racing. We are not professional driver with professional budgets. Most of us beg barrow and steal every dollar we put into our race efforts.

 

5.5 is at a high level of cubic dollars. To reach this number or even close to it, you need HP beyond a factory plant and or a full weight reduction plan in the carbon fiber method.

 

I do speak from American V8 rear wheel drive platform, lets face it, what are the most prevalent cars in ST. Corvettes and Vipers with some other one offs showing up. Not that I am against it, but we are talking about the masses and increasing car count.

 

I have only classed one car in Texas that was at or over 5.5 to one. Ferrari F430 Challenge on slicks with 160lb driver. Did I mention cubic dollars?

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Don't actually see anyone at 450 and 3000 lbs. Most American V8s are well above that weight. FFRs can, but have their on class.

 

The C5 I drive is stripped, gutted and having aftermarket body panels doesn't get down to 3,000lbs with driver. You would have to weigh less than 100lbs or do without safety equipment and motor life extenders.

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its not a straight up HP:weight ratio, don't forget the adjustments

 

450whp, 3000lbs, no other adders or subtractors is 6.417

 

 

Actually, you help make my point also, even if your base is off. 450 RWHP is a good number for a base engine with power adders like cams, intakes, headers, exhaust and so on. Not a CRD $20K pro race motor.

 

500 RWHP is a good number and can be made with factory motors relatively inexpensive, like say the cost of a used CMC car.

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little more data action - its a bit slow today

 

450whp, 3200lbs, no other add/sub = 7.061

450whp, 3100lbs, no other add/sub = 6.739

500whp, 3200lbs, no other add/sub = 6.350

500whp, 3100lbs, no other add/sub = 6.050

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....The C5 I drive is stripped, gutted and having aftermarket body panels doesn't get down to 3,000lbs with driver. ....

 

 

I thought so too but Sebastian, with a cage, has his down to 2850 or so.

 

A 500 hp LS motor is possible for the price of a used CMC car...

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i think the ST1 class should be a little more narrow.

 

Being at the limit of ST2, if i creep over that line and think about moving up? I lose for at least a year while i try to gain 200 HP so I can be competitive. Maybe ST1 should be ~100 hp over ST2 and if people want to start and arms race... let them be in STU.

 

But for me personally.. Dont change it! The less classes the better. Just lower the ST1-STU line.

 

 

 

...which now that i look back at the thread, seems to be the general consensus.

 

.. nevermind

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....The C5 I drive is stripped, gutted and having aftermarket body panels doesn't get down to 3,000lbs with driver. ....

 

 

I thought so too but Sebastian, with a cage, has his down to 2850 or so.

 

A 500 hp LS motor is possible for the price of a used CMC car...

 

I would like to see a fully developed C5 weigh 2850 WITH Driver. Maybe I could get some ideas...

 

Strip car, add quality safety equipment, add motor life extenders (Accusump or Drysump, Big Radiator, Trans cooler, Diff Cooler, Fire System and so on.

 

You could buy an ex-WCGT car for $100K, but then again we are talking about club racing.

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i think the ST1 class should be a little more narrow.

 

Being at the limit of ST2, if i creep over that line and think about moving up? I lose for at least a year while i try to gain 200 HP so I can be competitive. Maybe ST1 should be ~100 hp over ST2 and if people want to start and arms race... let them be in STU.

 

But for me personally.. Dont change it! The less classes the better. Just lower the ST1-STU line.

 

 

 

...which now that i look back at the thread, seems to be the general consensus.

 

.. nevermind

 

Exactly! Add a 100 RWHP to an ST-2 C5 and you have a good range for 6.5:1. 375 RWHP +100 = 475RWHP. Please double check my math.

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.....I would like to see a fully developed C5 weigh 2850 WITH Driver. Maybe I could get some ideas...

 

Strip car, add quality safety equipment, add motor life extenders (Accusump or Drysump, Big Radiator, Trans cooler, Diff Cooler, Fire System and so on.

.....

 

Here is his info from mylaps from Road Atlanta last month

Sebastian Ernst 1:32.455 in his 99 FRC - it is stripped with CF all over the place..

 

I do not think he hangs out here much but he is on the Corvette AX/RR forum from time to time

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....The C5 I drive is stripped, gutted and having aftermarket body panels doesn't get down to 3,000lbs with driver. ....

 

 

I thought so too but Sebastian, with a cage, has his down to 2850 or so.

 

A 500 hp LS motor is possible for the price of a used CMC car...

 

I would like to see a fully developed C5 weigh 2850 WITH Driver. Maybe I could get some ideas...

 

Strip car, add quality safety equipment, add motor life extenders (Accusump or Drysump, Big Radiator, Trans cooler, Diff Cooler, Fire System and so on.

 

You could buy an ex-WCGT car for $100K, but then again we are talking about club racing.

 

Mine is just about 3000# with Driver, I normally weight in with about 1/3 tank and 150# of lead at 3160ish

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Mine is just about 3000# with Driver, I normally weight in with about 1/3 tank and 150# of lead at 3160ish

 

It must be just me. The C5 I drive is 3200 lbs with driver. I have 50-60lbs or more over average driver weight, but that doesn't get the car down to 3000.

 

Are you guys running all of the stuff I mentioned before? Are you running ST? I would prepare my car a lot different for TT. Some of the weight in the car is to survive races in the Texas Heat.

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....The C5 I drive is stripped, gutted and having aftermarket body panels doesn't get down to 3,000lbs with driver. ....

 

You could buy an ex-WCGT car for $100K, but then again we are talking about club racing.

 

Ok Kevin:shock: ..................... whats wrong with doing that?????

my car in SCCA STO trim is 3150/417rwhp and I've run 29's at Road Atlanta

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From some of this discussion you'd think the only cars competing in ST are vettes. ST is supposed to be a catch all class I thought for cars with fairly open prep rules. If it makes sense to move the ST1 limit to get a larger number of cars (vettes) competitive with each other then I'm all for it. Moving the line for ST2 to allow more HP will make the jump from PTA to ST-2 even tougher for cars without a v8. I'd be all for an ST-3 class similar to GTS 3 at around 11lb/hp if there were enough cars to fill the class. There are cars out there with less than 350hp that want to explore the limits of suspension and aero tuning without worrying about the constraints of each and every modification point.

Unless a rules change can increase car counts and participation in each class, I'd say keep them as is.

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I know, who do these guys think they are!

 

Believe me Sean, I did have you in mind when I was making post. See the part where I call out "Oddities."

 

I am really just speaking in reference to ST-1. I think ST-2 is fine. I wouldn't think you wold want to jump into ST-1. Maybe I am just bitchin' but I can no longer afford to chase the 5.5:1 ratio. 6.5 is actually beyond the LS6 in the car now, But can be achieved eventually. The big motor is out. Even with the required dry sump to make it live on the track, the support around the engine become too costly. It rapidly uses up all of the resource around it of all kinds. Cash, Tires, Gas, Brakes, Transmissions, Differentials and so on.

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Why change now. Our class attendence though improving is not that large to justify further splitting of the classes. A change like this would put those who are approching the 5.5 mark in a difficult situation. I understand the detune logic but couldn't those in ST-1 now that don't want to pursue the upper limit detune for ST-2? I figure a couple of doughnuts should put Kevin in ST-2

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I am really just speaking in reference to ST-1. I think ST-2 is fine. I wouldn't think you wold want to jump into ST-1. Maybe I am just bitchin' but I can no longer afford to chase the 5.5:1 ratio.

 

exactly... if you want to start an arms race.. it should be in Unlimited. ST-1 should be a high horse power class, but still affordable.

 

my z06 is right on the 8.7 limit with the original 50k mile, 361HP motor.. if i do as little as put a cam in it, im the whipping boy of ST-1 cars with 600HP

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Why change now. Our class attendence though improving is not that large to justify further splitting of the classes. A change like this would put those who are approching the 5.5 mark in a difficult situation. I understand the detune logic but couldn't those in ST-1 now that don't want to pursue the upper limit detune for ST-2? I figure a couple of doughnuts should put Kevin in ST-2

 

The numbers I can quote easily are from TT in NASA-SE since I generate them - in 2008 I had 26 participants in TTU, in 2009 I have 12 (with two events left). It could be the economy (but we fill up TT at most events) but it also could be they chose to stay home instead of being the class fillers for the guys winning the tires. The intent is to get more people out on track in ST and TT grids.

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Mine is just about 3000# with Driver, I normally weight in with about 1/3 tank and 150# of lead at 3160ish

 

It must be just me. The C5 I drive is 3200 lbs with driver. I have 50-60lbs or more over average driver weight, but that doesn't get the car down to 3000.

 

Are you guys running all of the stuff I mentioned before? Are you running ST? I would prepare my car a lot different for TT. Some of the weight in the car is to survive races in the Texas Heat.

 

Yeah, I have all that stuff, OIl, Trans, Dif coolers, big radiator, crazy cage,12 qt dry sump, ect ect.

 

But no stock stuff left like dash and everything behind it.

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Okay. I can see if I stripped the car to that level. I still have most wires, including BMC, ABS, Power Mirrors, Cruise Control (Still Works), Door Locks, Heat and Defrost. Complete Working Factory Dash and Gauges. I could see that being a 100+ lbs.

 

But you bring up another point. Should it be necessary to rip a car that far to get the weight out? Corvettes do have a life after racing. Down the road a few years the value of the old race cars will pick back up. I don't know how valid that point is.

 

Anyway. I doubt any changes will be made. It doesn't appear the ST-1 group at large wants this change. I have already switched the engine and am 40 RWHP from ST-2 anyway.

 

I am sure all 3 fast ST-1 cars will have a good championship race.

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what kills me about this whole discussion is the number of people that think that NASA or SCCA should add classes fit the THEIR PARTICULAR CAR.

Thats bullsh*t. There are too many classes now that dilute the car counts.

There is no doubt about it that as you move to the 5.5 ratio it gets more and more expensive to build a competitive car. Okay.......so either spend the money or don't, that's your choice. I run ST-1 at a 6.3 ratio, I could spend a ton more money on HP to get to the 5.5 but I choose not to. Danny and Aaron have gotten their cars close to that number. Why should they be penalized by adding another class which takes cars away from ST1 and ST2 for that matter.

There are enough options now to fit anybodys budget..............pick one and go racing.

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It's just a discussion and we were told anything and everything is on the table

 

I still think

 

5.5 or 6.0 ST1

 

7.5 or 8.0 ST2

 

9.5 or 10.0 ST3

 

 

TTA/PTA=8.7 ST2 should be a little better

 

IMO

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