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Jim P.

Toys for Tots 8 hr Enduro

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Jim P.

Howdy all,

I started this to give everyone a place to discuss the details about the Dec 5th, Toys for Tots, 8 hr Endurance race at Road Atlanta. There have been many points of confusion so we decided it was best to put everything in one topic. Go for it!

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joecycles

Joe Joe racing plans to attend this event. I am also trying to bring in a friend who runs in HSR and SCCA to attend (trying to get him to leave the dark side!). I am assuming you have to have a minimum of 2 drivers but what about pit rules for changing tires, will it go by the book or can we do wheel changes on pit road? Glad to see it may become a reality.

 

Joey Sullivan

944 cup - gold car (no number yet!)

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robbodleimages

On first glance based on what I am used to reading on these boards I thought the title read Toyos for Tots 8 hr Enduro. That would be one hell of an investment in the underprivileged.

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joecycles

Is there going to be a collection of toys for the charity or is there going to be a "charitable" giving attachment to the entry etc.? Just curious. I am a big believer in charities (esp for kids)!

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LMan

Word on the street is, Jim plans to donate one of the cars from his stable to charity.

 

..but the Mad Bomber is not included

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Teufelauto

Sounds like a 'Must Attend' event for my 'Marines' car!

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Team BDR

Team BDR plans to make the trip with a SM for the event, we also have some of the SCCA guys from the Florida region asking about it, any details you can give us on min drivers, min pit stops, entry fees etc??

 

Any info I will be passing on to alot of the guys interested down here in Florida.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Team BDR

Cliff Blanchard

#177 95' SM

#179 91' SM

#177 S2000 TTB

Nasa FL TT Sponsor

Nasa FL SM director

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robbodleimages

Registration is up already for that race. The price is $495 for two drivers.

 

NASA rules call for minimum of two drivers for races over 6 hours like this one.

 

Pit stops are free, but most cars(other than classes ES and ESR) are restricted to fueling 10 gallons of fuel per stop. There is no minimum pit stop time. Driver may remain in the car for fueling.

 

I hope that helps

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mpowers

Here are a few of the Enduro Rules, points to ponder, cliff notes and some examples worth noting:

 

8.2.1. For endurance races of six hours and greater (This section is not applicable to ES and ESR):

There are no required timed pit stops, and no minimum number of stops. No more than 10 gallons of gas from two NASA approved standard 5-gallon plastic fuel containers may be put in the car during any pit stop. The containers may not be refilled during a pit stop and put in the car (i.e. if the team has two containers half full, that is all they can put in during that stop). Note- Six gallon (or other) containers, sold as "5-Gallon" fuel containers are NOT legal.

 

*What this says that any E0-E3 are limited to only 10 gallons of fuel per pit stop. Note that it does not limit the number of stops, you may refuel as often as you wish but only 10 gallons at a time and only with 2-5 gallon jugs at a time. This should make for a great equalizer between classes! ES and ESR are more or less an unrestricted class thus not required per the rules.

 

8.1. Pit space

All competitors are required to keep two gallons of water, at least one 5 Ib. or larger ABC rated fire extinguisher (with a gauge indicating fully charged), and at least 5 pounds of oil absorbent in their pit space. Each team must have their own pit space for each team car that will pit at the same time. Each

team's separate pit space must meet the requirements for equipment (i.e fire extinguisher, water, etc.) No sharing of required equipment, such as fire extinguishers, is permitted between pit spaces, even for the same team, unless the team is willing to limit themselves to having only one team car pit at a time. The team owner will be held responsible for any damages to the track, pits, or paddock.

 

*About a month before the event I will open up my email to assigned pit spaces. Every other hot pit “space” will be used starting from pit entrance. These will be first come first serve with preference going to current NASA Southeast Enduro participants first. Don’t email me before hand about which pit space you want.

 

*If your team is crew going to crew for another car, you will need two pit “spaces” separated by one. Please note if you have two “spaces” each space will need it’s own safety equipment. No sharing safety equipment between the two spaces. Safety equipment per space is as follows: two gallons of water, at least one 5 Ib. or larger ABC rated fire extinguisher (with a gauge indicating fully charged), and at least 5 pounds of oil absorbent.

 

*We are assigning pit spaces so officials won’t have to run all over the place to ensure legal practices during the eunduro.

 

5.8. Full course yellow

The pits will be "closed" during full course yellows. Once the last turn station, before the pit entrance, displays the double yellow flags (or by any other defined indication), the pit lane will then be "closed." If a car enters the pit lane during a full course yellow situation, the driver has three options:

A. Proceed to the paddock and work may be performed (unless prohibited by an official, due to the course condition changing to "Red Flag").

B. Park in the team's pit space and do nothing until the end of the full course yellow. The driver may not exit car (unless due to an emergency or instructed to do so by an official) and the team shall not work on the car.

C. Continue through the pit lane and rejoin the field at the end of the pack.

 

* Just make sure all folks know full course yellow rules.

 

* Also note we will allow on course repairs of your vehicles as long as the corner worker/officials says that it is a safe place to work on the car. Don’t run out of fuel-this will not be allowed anywhere but the hot pits.

 

*Please take the time to read the rules found here: http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/enduro.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are lots of little small items that could cost you a penalty.

 

*Also note penalties will be handed out on a “Time” format not by “Laps”. Example- 20 minute penalty for wearing shorts in the hot pits.

 

* We will supersede the tire rule and allow for all four tires/wheels to be changed at a pit stop.

 

Any question please post and I will we try to answer them as soon as possible.

 

 

mpowers

NASA Southeast

Co-Director

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FandangoDrew
Here are a few of the Enduro Rules, points to ponder, cliff notes and some examples worth noting:

 

8.2.1. For endurance races of six hours and greater (This section is not applicable to ES and ESR):

There are no required timed pit stops, and no minimum number of stops. No more than 10 gallons of gas from two NASA approved standard 5-gallon plastic fuel containers may be put in the car during any pit stop. The containers may not be refilled during a pit stop and put in the car (i.e. if the team has two containers half full, that is all they can put in during that stop). Note- Six gallon (or other) containers, sold as "5-Gallon" fuel containers are NOT legal.

 

*What this says that any E0-E3 are limited to only 10 gallons of fuel per pit stop. Note that it does not limit the number of stops, you may refuel as often as you wish but only 10 gallons at a time and only with 2-5 gallon jugs at a time. This should make for a great equalizer between classes! ES and ESR are more or less an unrestricted class thus not required per the rules.

 

For those who did not see the other thread this is what the illegal cans look like;

10300010.jpg

 

this is what the NASA approved cans look like:

jugs.jpg

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dmwhite
this is what the NASA approved cans look like:

jugs.jpg

 

i'd like to see an official ruling...do those only hold 5 gallons? (in other words: can't you put more than 5 gallons in those jugs?)...i have both styles (the hunsaker dump cans and the "standard" jugs) and i can tell you that every fuel jug i have, can hold more fuel than advertised...

 

so what exactly makes the hunsaker (quick dump) jugs illegal (but not the "standard" jugs)?

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IndyJim

I'd like to see a ruling too. My reading of that particular section as well as the below, it seems that the intention is to prohibit homemade fuel rigs more than anything. I've seen modifications to the other type of jugs with hoses that does the same thing as the supposedly 'illegal' versions.

 

8.12. Refueling methods

8.12.1. ES and ESR cars may use any safe method of refueling (i.e. NASCAR dump cans or IMSA type

overhead refueling). All classes except ES and ESR (unless otherwise specified) must use standard

approved 5-gallon plastic gas cans with a funnel or hose to refuel, and are restricted from using quick fill

methods such as those used in NASCAR, etc. The entire weight of the 5-gallon containers must be

supported by the refueler(s) during refueling. No device(s) that distributes any of the weight (of the gas

containers) to anything but the legal refueler(s) is allowed.

8.12.2. All classes (except ES and ESR) are prohibited from using any type of “(re)fueling rig” or “quick fill

method.” The definition of “(re)fueling rig” or “quick fill method” (for the sake of prohibition) is refueling an

E0, E1, E2, or E3 class car using any of the following items: Gas containers other than the standard

approved 5-gallon plastic gas cans, specialized nozzles (aircraft), “Dry Breaks” (Nextel Cup / Grand Am),

fuel pumps (of any type), electric power tools, wheels (for any purpose), support stands (see rule 8.13), or

other devices deemed, by the Race Director, to be outside the spirit and intent of these rules. [Note: This

is not to discourage developing more efficient refueling techniques and procedures working within these

guidelines.] The use of hoses; funnels; clamps; PVC & ABS fitting, valves, and pipes; threaded

connectors; roofing supplies; various plumbing supplies; and most similar items found at a local hardware

store are generally allowed.

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mpowers

The issue with the Hunsaker fuel jug- it is marked 5 gallon but holds 6 gallons. About every gas can sold holds more than what the marking shows, but they don't hold another gallon, .2 -.3 more at most. So Hunsaker is out for being legal.

 

Also note officials will be watching to see if they are over full, even a little bit.

 

Do take advantage of the rules that Indy Jim posted- so you may modify you fuel can to flow better...

 

 

 

mpowers

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IndyJim

I've put 5.5 in one of the 'standard' jugs without trying. So either the pump was reading incorrectly and I want my money back or I can't tell the difference between a 3 and a 5.

 

What is the cut off for 'illegal' if all jugs hold more gas? In both cases the jugs being used are sold as 5 gal. Since the flow rate isn't the 'issue' it seems like this is more of a matter of the pit police vs. outlawing any specific type of can.

 

You can make a homemade hunsaker with extra hose, some drilling, and hose clamps.

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dmwhite
The issue with the Hunsaker fuel jug- it is marked 5 gallon but holds 6 gallons. About every gas can sold holds more than what the marking shows, but they don't hold another gallon, .2 -.3 more at most. So Hunsaker is out for being legal.

i'm fairly certain that the "standard" 5 gallon jugs will hold more than 5.2-5.3 gallons...i have put at least 5.5 gallons in them before...odd that a 5.5+ gallon container would be allowed while a 6 gallon container is not...by the rules, wouldn't they both be illegal?

 

Also note officials will be watching to see if they are over full, even a little bit.

which could be done with any jug (5.5 gallon or 6 gallon)...it's also worth noting that most of the markings on fuel jugs don't seem to be very accurate. i've noticed with a few of my "standard" jugs that when i put 5.0 gallons in them, it's shy of a the 5 gallon line by a good bit...so i'm not 100 % sure how this is going to be policed...

 

Do take advantage of the rules that Indy Jim posted- so you may modify you fuel can to flow better...

this to me makes no sense at all (and frankly is quite scary)...nasa encourages people to modify fuel jugs to make them flow faster but at the same time we can't use a hunsaker jug because it's capacity is slightly larger than the "approved" jugs...i know i would rather see everyone using un-modified hunsaker jugs than modified fuel jugs of any type...

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robbodleimages

I don't know anything. I am just a guy, but I can read. I also know that if the rules say you have to do something, you have to. If the rules say, you can't do something, you can't. You are bound by the rules.

 

Those rules say you must use the approved 5 gallon gas cans. Is says the fuel from two cans is all that is allowed in a single pit stop. It doesn't say anything else.

 

Fill two APPROVED 5 gallon gas cans with fuel to your liking and without spilling it (for a penalty) put the fuel from the two APPROVED 5 gallon gas cans in your car.

 

Anything that is not specifically required or restricted by the stated rules is up to you.

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dmwhite

Rob,

 

can you point me in the direction of the list of NASA approved fuel jugs? i can't find it...

 

thanks!

 

edit: also, why is this just now an issue? several teams have been using hunsaker jugs this year without issue...i also recall teams being allowed to use the large (10 gal) hunsaker dump cans because "that was all they had" at some races this year....

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mpowers
8.2.1. For endurance races of six hours and greater (This section is not applicable to ES and ESR):

There are no required timed pit stops, and no minimum number of stops. No more than 10 gallons of gas from two NASA approved standard 5-gallon plastic fuel containers may be put in the car during any pit stop. The containers may not be refilled during a pit stop and put in the car (i.e. if the team has two containers half full, that is all they can put in during that stop). Note- Six gallon (or other) containers, sold as "5-Gallon" fuel containers are NOT legal.

*Please take the time to read the rules found here: http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/enduro.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are lots of little small items that could cost you a penalty.

 

 

mpowers

NASA Southeast

Co-Director

 

 

mpowers

wow I'm quoting myself

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dmwhite
wow I'm quoting myself

 

still not seeing the list of "NASA approved standard 5-gallon plastic fuel containers"

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IndyJim

I don't get it? I think Dave asked for a specific list.

 

If I can manage to cram 6 gallons into one of the other containers does that make it outlawed?

 

The rules application for the entire enduro series has been all over the place, but now we're going to start nitpicking?

 

To be clear - just so we know who we're talking about there are two E2 teams that I'm aware of using the hunsaker cans. Myself #008 and the Beertech team #155.

 

Since that rule doesn't mention the hunsaker can specifically, or for that matter the 'legal' cans either by manf. or part number I'll ask again - "What is legal?" and who makes that determination.

 

And if you rule those illegal I can make a hunsaker out of the 'legal' version for $3 in PVC, which I'll do. The hunsaker is just a nicer, cleaner, safer version.

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mpowers
wow I'm quoting myself

 

still not seeing the list of "NASA approved standard 5-gallon plastic fuel containers"

 

David I posted this at the same time you posted yours-so forgive me for not being clairvoyant. Their is no such list and never has been, but what we do know is what is illegal. So you may use and modify any fuel can you see fit for as long as it fits the rules.

 

If you find one you like, take a picture and email it to me and I will approve it.

 

 

 

mpowers

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robbodleimages

Being perfectly straight forward with you, as a director I was pretty slack on rules. This season. There are various points of view on whether that was good or not. Be that as it may, we were trying to start something new.

 

This 8 hour race is a different thing. Its a race that people may haul quite a distance for. We(I) need to be much more tuned to the rules and compliance.

 

I have been the director and I take responsibility for how the races were conducted, both good and bad.

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IndyJim

That isn't a shot at anyone. I'm fine with strict or lax, I'm not fine with changing gears. Consistency equals set expectations.

 

I still haven't seen this officially - the hunsaker is now 'officially' illegal? I'd also like to know why since any fuel jug can hold more than its stated value, and in terms of performance you can modify the 'legal' versions to be the same although slightly messier and probably more dangerous.

 

You may want to broadcast that a little more fully than a toys for tots thread.

 

I'd also prefer to have clearer direction on what is legal before I start cutting up more gas cans and wasting more money.

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Lemming

 

If you find one you like, take a picture and email it to me and I will approve it.

 

 

mpowers

 

David,

 

Take a picture of the Hunsaker, based on the above, it will be approved

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dmwhite
David,

 

Take a picture of the Hunsaker, based on the above, it will be approved

 

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