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Toys for Tots 8 hr Enduro


Jim P.

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It is everybodys job to be rules compliant, it is the directors job to rule on things brought to their attention. If you know that your fuel jug/or whatever is illegal, and nobody protested you on it that does not make it legal.

 

This is amateur racing dont let the stickers fool you and if you have to cheat to win

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dsullinger

Anybody need supplies?

 

I'm not doing the 8-hour, but I do have some stuff I can bring to loan out:

  • Fire Extinguisher
  • 10-lb bag of Oil-Dri
  • Oil-Dri rubber-backed spill mat (to put under the car during fueling).
  • 5-gallon bucket for water (really just a paint bucket)
  • 3 gas cans like the ones listed as "approved" in Drew's post. These are white (you can see how much and the grade if the fuel contains dye) and marked "GAS" in vinyl letters. They also have my car number (44), however this can be changed for a small fee
  • Sparco Pit Board with standard letters & numbers. Could come in handy should your radio fail

 

All of the stuff is basically unused except for the gas cans. My enduro efforts progressed from a DNS in March (no rain tires) to a first-lap DNF in August.

 

Shoot me a PM if interested - first come, first served.

 

-Don

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FandangoDrew

Any can is going to hold a little more then what the label says. The hunsaker can is sold as being capiable of holding 6 gallons and although not named in the rules its pretty clear that this is the can (or style) of can that the rules are talking about. This is from Hunsakers website.

 

 

 

Item Name:

Hunsaker 5 Gallon: Blue

Item #:

hun-5-gal-blue

 

Blue Color is Easy to Identify Contents Making it Perfect for Water Storage!

 

• The most unique and Innovative design

• Excellent craftsmanship

• U.S. patented container

• 5 Gallon can actually hold 6 gallons

• 11 Gallon can actually hold 13 gallons

• Square, stocky secure base for excellent stability

• It will NOT tip over

• Easy handling for all genders

• Fills from both vent side and pour side

• Will empty in 10 seconds

• CNC BILLET ALUMINUM CAPS for a trick look and durability

• Aluminum caps will never crack or corrode

• All aluminum caps contain rubber gaskets for excellent sealing

• Will not leak

• Nylon hose attachment for flexibility

• Hose will never harden or crack/ it will not stiffen like the competitors

• Hose attachment does not need to be removed, just fill from vent tube

• Dimensions - 12 x 12 x 24 (without hose)

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FandangoDrew

The rule seem really simple to me: a legal can may not be capable of holding 6 gallons:

jugs.jpg

these cans will hold more then 5 gallons but are not capable of holding 6 therefore they would be legal.

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FandangoDrew
Rob,

 

can you point me in the direction of the list of NASA approved fuel jugs? i can't find it...

 

thanks!

 

edit: also, why is this just now an issue? several teams have been using hunsaker jugs this year without issue...i also recall teams being allowed to use the large (10 gal) hunsaker dump cans because "that was all they had" at some races this year....

 

David- the reason I brought this issue up now is because there is a limit of only 10 gallons/stop in enduros over 6 hours making the use of the illegal cans a big advantage for the eight hour. If a team can get 2 more gallons every stop, under my math that would mean one less stop over 8 hours.

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Honestly, we don't even care. The e30 starves out once it gets to a little under 1/4 tank, leaving around two gallons in the tank. We wouldn't even be able to use the "extra capacity" of the Hunsakers anyway. We've never even filled them to the five gallon mark.

 

The real draw of the Hunsakers is the superior safety vs. the "standard" style fuel jugs. The Hunsakers are virtually spill proof, easier to handle, and drain faster.

 

Drew, if you're that afraid of an e30........

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how about allowing either 2 of the proper cans, or only 1 of the "cheater" 6 gal cans..? advantage taken away from them there and they can still use their "safer" cans if they want

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FandangoDrew
Honestly, we don't even care. The e30 starves out once it gets to a little under 1/4 tank, leaving around two gallons in the tank. We wouldn't even be able to use the "extra capacity" of the Hunsakers anyway. We've never even filled them to the five gallon mark.

 

The real draw of the Hunsakers is the superior safety vs. the "standard" style fuel jugs. The Hunsakers are virtually spill proof, easier to handle, and drain faster.

 

Drew, if you're that afraid of an e30........

 

I know there are more then two teams in E2 using the hunsakers (E0 and E1).

 

I agree that all this is a little silly, but I also think that the 10 gallon/stop rule in an enduro is VERY silly, especially in classes where you are not supposed to use a fuel tank larger then stock.

 

Having put in the 10 gallon/stop rule, it is understandable that only way to enforce it was to put in a uniform can rule.

 

I looked at the hunsacker cans at the beginning of the year, and I thought it was really cool that you can empty a full can in 10 seconds but after i saw a few venders advertise them as a can that "looks like a 5 gallon can while holding 6 gallons" I thought these were clearly the cans that the rules were talking about.

 

I know the hunsakers drain MUCH faster then legal cans and I didn't care about it all year, but with the 10 gallon/stop rule it will make a big difference.

 

9 stops for 12 gallons= 108 gallons compared to 10 stops for 10 gallons = 100 gallons.

That will make a 1 or 2 stop difference.

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13-FANDANGO-TONY-66

It seems pretty easy of a fix to me, lose the 10 gallon per pit rule or just use the legal cans..Whats the problem?

 

I realize the the other cans are safer,but the teams have been using the nasa legal cans all year with out an issue, why is there a problem now?

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how about allowing either 2 of the proper cans, or only 1 of the "cheater" 6 gal cans..? advantage taken away from them there and they can still use their "safer" cans if they want

 

yeah, quoting myself:

 

2 x actual 5 gallon cans = 10 gallons

1 x fake 5, really 6 gallon can = 6 gallons, but they don't have to buy new one

 

where is their advantage besides letting them legally be cheapskates?

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We have both. Its a moot point as we never add more than 10gal. anyway.

 

BTW, the "ten seconds to empty" claim is complete crap. They are marginally faster than standard. The stock filler neck is the limiting factor to fueling speed.

 

JP "what a retarded rule" Coates

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David- the reason I brought this issue up now is because there is a limit of only 10 gallons/stop in enduros over 6 hours making the use of the illegal cans a big advantage for the eight hour. If a team can get 2 more gallons every stop, under my math that would mean one less stop over 8 hours.

 

gotcha...my point is that putting more than 5 gallons in a can (more than 10 gallons per stop) is cheating and can be done with any gas can (not just the hunsaker)...in other words, not allowing hunsaker cans does not eliminate the ability to add more fuel than allowed or the need to enforce the rule...

 

if officials are in the pits checking fuel levels in cans (which they have said will be done), it doesnt matter what size can you use, no?

 

in the end, since the hunsaker jugs have been deemed illegal, we will not be using them in our pits...unfortunately, this might lead some to modify jugs to dump faster (which is specifically allowed/encouraged in the rules but seems to go against the focus on safety in the pits)

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Here is my point - that rule as worded sucks.

 

9.3.8.3.1. Bilstein Sport shocks - part number B36-2027 shall be used.

 

There is an example of a rule with no wiggle room or interpretation. It doesn't say:

 

Shocks shall be used, made by a manf. with a B, or colored yellow.

 

If the Hunsaker cans are illegal it should say that specifically not some vague nonsense about a 6 gallon into 5.

 

If I can figure out a way to cram 6 gal. into the generic 'legal' can does it then become banned? There should be a list of approved cans that are legal if NASA feels that its an issue.

 

I'll be spending my weekend taking two of my junk cans and figuring out how to make them flow faster with my $3 in PVC. Thanks.

 

I hope everyone does take the time to read the rules. I have several times, there are few things that may catch people out if we're going by the letter of the law now.

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IndyJim, you do realize these are the exact same rules that the 25hrs of Thunderhill use correct? And yes you should have always gone by the rules, lucky you did not get caught. So take the gravy you got and move on.

 

 

 

mpowers

The fuel jug subject is dead.

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IndyJim, you do realize these are the exact same rules that the 25hrs of Thunderhill use correct? And yes you should have always gone by the rules, lucky you did not get caught. So take the gravy you got and move on.

 

the gravy he got? people have been specifically allowed to use the 10 gallon hunsaker jugs ("because that's all they had") at enduros this year and you are telling jim he is "lucky he didnt get caught?"...the wording is not very clear on fuel jugs as there is no list of whats allowed and not allowed so telling someone they are lucky they didn't get caugt is over the top...

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The true irony of all this is due to hunsaker's crack delivery process I don't think I've acutally used these in an enduro.

 

If I did it would have been Road Atlanta but the car broke so it didn't matter.

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IndyJim, you do realize these are the exact same rules that the 25hrs of Thunderhill use correct? And yes you should have always gone by the rules, lucky you did not get caught. So take the gravy you got and move on.

 

the gravy he got? people have been specifically allowed to use the 10 gallon hunsaker jugs ("because that's all they had") at enduros this year and you are telling jim he is "lucky he didnt get caught?"...the wording is not very clear on fuel jugs as there is no list of whats allowed and not allowed so telling someone they are lucky they didn't get caugt is over the top...

 

David if you have a personal problem take it off line and pm me. Your two are way to hung up on the fuel can which has, is and will be in effect till NASA changes it. Just because you got away with it in the past does not make it "OK" so yes he and others got lucky.

 

Now I've just stepped on board as a co-director and I'm not one to let a rule infraction fly if at all possible. If I see you with one or someone else with an illegal amount of fuel or fuel jug I will penalize you with a timed stop.

 

How hard is it to understand? If it's a Fuel Jug Holding 6 Gallons and is Marked 5 Gallons it's Illegal.

 

 

mpowers

I really hope your just jerking my chain...

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I'm not jerking your chain I'm not sure how 'everyone' was supposed to know these were illegal given the rule and its wording.

 

Maybe it is buried in another toys for tots thread that I missed, maybe in another NASA area on the board, maybe on another internet site that I'm not aware of but 'everyone' else is.

 

I'm glad you're on board, it is making my decision to make my enduro finale at Road Atlanta that much easier.

 

I'm not hung up on fuel jugs I'm hung up on inconsistent enforcement of poorly worded rules.

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robbodleimages

easy...Jim. We want you at the race/in the race and participating next season as well. You've been a great participant this season.

 

We are new with this series and I am new as a series director. There were going to be some growing pains and I apoligize for them.

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Rob you seem like the voice of reason here. I'm not asking that they be made legal or really even complaining.

 

[rant]

Simply pointing out that this rule is vague, I never noticed the 6 gallon wording on the hunsaker website and even now that I do, I think stating that its "obvious" this is what the rules refer to is tenuous at best. If it was that cut and dried why not mention it by name? Or simply produce a list of approved gas cans by part number.

 

To Dave's point these are easy to move around, safer, and have a marginally faster flow than the others. I have a 13 gallon cell and it starves at 10 gallons so the extra capacity does nothing for me. And again I'VE NEVER USED THEM! So no real benefit here other than two - now useless gas cans.

 

I'm done beating the horse. I hope that anyone that someone how doesn't make this 'obvious' connection reads about toys for tots before showing up at Road Altanta with their Hunsaker cans (since that is the obvious place for this discussion to take place).[/rant]

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I'm not jerking your chain I'm not sure how 'everyone' was supposed to know these were illegal given the rule and its wording.

 

Maybe it is buried in another toys for tots thread that I missed, maybe in another NASA area on the board, maybe on another internet site that I'm not aware of but 'everyone' else is.

 

I'm glad you're on board, it is making my decision to make my enduro finale at Road Atlanta that much easier.

 

I'm not hung up on fuel jugs I'm hung up on inconsistent enforcement of poorly worded rules.

 

IndyJim and who ever else is reading, we will do our best to make sure everyone knows the rules and we are consistent on their enforcement throughout the year. This is the reason this thread was started in the first place.

 

 

mpowers

again any questions please ask

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