Controlling Stand Alone Engine Management

[Rosiecki]

I realize that there will be some drivers running a standalone system in their cars and I was just curious how this is really being controlled for cheating. All it takes is a flick of a switch or not even that, the front wheels don’t even have to spin on the dyno and it will not read true numbers. Changing the maps is extremely easy, so if someone is running consistent lap times through the weekend and puts down a hero lap in the final isn’t there a strong possibility that a little illegal tuning changed that? Thoughts...

[scottbm3]

I realize that there will be some drivers running a standalone system in their cars and I was just curious how this is really being controlled for cheating. All it takes is a flick of a switch or not even that, the front wheels don’t even have to spin on the dyno and it will not read true numbers. Changing the maps is extremely easy, so if someone is running consistent lap times through the weekend and puts down a hero lap in the final isn’t there a strong possibility that a little illegal tuning changed that? Thoughts...

 

Ryan,

 

It can be done with the factory ECU easily too. Multiple maps controlled by a switch, a wireless system, etc. If someone really wants to do it, it will be hard to stop it. They(GTS) will try their best to minimize the chances, but its still a possibility.

 

 

-Scott

[heckmotor]

Is it technically feasible (and/or relevant) to seal our boxes at some point of the weekend, e.g. after Thursday practice?

[scottbm3]

Is it technically feasible (and/or relevant) to seal our boxes at some point of the weekend, e.g. after Thursday practice?

 

Other series did it last year. Sealing ECU's and the ports. Though if someone has multiple switchable maps etc..that doesn't really do much. Though something is better than nothing. There didn't seem to be much of an effort last year at nationals for any kind of tech stuff in GTS, especially after the championship race.

 

-Scott

[Rosiecki]

I agree about last year, but it’s over and done. My FAMILY, sponsors, and I have spent a good dime this year to get where we are and I would like to see GTS be more serious at impound.

[Eric W.]

Is it technically feasible (and/or relevant) to seal our boxes at some point of the weekend, e.g. after Thursday practice?

 

Other series did it last year. Sealing ECU's and the ports. Though if someone has multiple switchable maps etc..that doesn't really do much. Though something is better than nothing. There didn't seem to be much of an effort last year at nationals for any kind of tech stuff in GTS, especially after the championship race.

 

-Scott

 

Well, we do have to fill out an extra form this year disclosing all ports and anything that can remotely even be close to looking like a port/switch. If it is not declared and found... bye bye!

 

On my sheet, I wasnt taking any chances. Every port down to my Traqmate USB and Innovate LM1 serial port were disclosed.

[bmw22]

I have 4 comments to make:

 

1. I agree

 

2. This year, every entrant must complete the EMDF (Engine Management Declaration form), and every car will be inspected. This also give you (entrant) the opportunity to police each other. You can protest a car against their EMDF. NASA/GTS reserves the right to seal ECUs and ports.

 

3. Let NASA know your concerns. Tell them that lengthy, effective impound is more important to you than a time saving, rushed through impound.

 

4. I can't get NASA officials to read our rules, let alone expect them to have a good understanding of each make and model car. This type of inspection is much more difficult on 55+ GTS cars than it is on a series with one or two different model cars. I will be holding a mandatory drivers meeting. (time and location will be posted when you first come to see me at the track) At that meeting we will have Tech personel and our Race Director. Impound for the event will be 50% of the meeting. This meeting will be mandatory and missing it will cost you spots on the grid.

[bmw22]

Well, we do have to fill out an extra form this year disclosing all ports and anything that can remotely even be close to looking like a port/switch. If it is not declared and found... bye bye!

 

On my sheet, I wasnt taking any chances. Every port down to my Traqmate USB and Innovate LM1 serial port were disclosed.

 

Exactly!!!!! That's the detail I expect to see on the form. Buy that man a beer!

[John Graber]

Mark,

With enough time and money there aare ways around all the rules. That said, the 55 GTS cars are easier than my TTB-TTR cars of all makes and models. We, I am the Group I Director, use a special tape to seal ALL ports prior to starting competiton. If there is an adjustment requested, a new dyno must be certified after the tape removal and prior to competition.

 

John

[Eric W.]

Mark,

With enough time and money there aare ways around all the rules. That said, the 55 GTS cars are easier than my TTB-TTR cars of all makes and models. We, I am the Group I Director, use a special tape to seal ALL ports prior to starting competiton. If there is an adjustment requested, a new dyno must be certified after the tape removal and prior to competition.

 

John

 

John, so if I wanted a free dyno, I just rip the tape off?

[heckmotor]

Since there's the argument that part of racing is what you can do to the car without being caught, how about we add a GTS-D (as in dyno) class to next year's event? The way it would work is that a competitor would scale and dyno at a given GTS-legal level, and then re-dyno after making some crafty, secret change. The winner would be the person who has the highest HP gain without a scrutineer being able to determine how they did it, and we could do class trophies etc.

 

That would limit wear, tear and potential risk involved with getting to the podium, and it would also allow those who do make the podium in the other GTS classes to know that they did so because they had the right combination of outpreparing and/or outdriving their competitors - and/or choosing a better-engineered car (so using a Great Lakes example, when a Scotty or Sean finishes in front of us aircooled GTS3 guys, it's because they've outprepared and/or outdriven us)...

[bmw22]

John, so if I wanted a free dyno, I just rip the tape off?

 

No, you would have just purchased a $75 piece of used tape.

[cwbaader]

This seems too obvious. Everyone run a 173 ecu. At registration, you submit your ecu. They will be tagged and the screws marked with telltale paint and handed out randomly. I would also suggest the ecu be moved to the passenger floor board to make changing/inspection easier. Chuck

[scottbm3]

This seems too obvious. Everyone run a 173 ecu. At registration, you submit your ecu. They will be tagged and the screws marked with telltale paint and handed out randomly. I would also suggest the ecu be moved to the passenger floor board to make changing/inspection easier. Chuck

 

Don't think that will work on a '96 E36M3 OBD2 ?

 

 

-Scott

[RSCoupe]

A spec ECU would never work with all of the different car makes and models, much less engine types. A stock BMW 6 is a bit different than my turbo 5 cylinder.

[cwbaader]

Sorry guys...was thinking spec e30. Guess we will have to rely on dyno reports. chuck

[911.racer]

Mark,

With enough time and money there are ways around all the rules. That said, the 55 GTS cars are easier than my TTB-TTR cars of all makes and models. We, I am the Group I Director, use a special tape to seal ALL ports prior to starting competition. If there is an adjustment requested, a new dyno must be certified after the tape removal and prior to competition.

 

John

 

OK, I am good with all of this except what John is saying about a new dyno sheet after any adjustment.

 

If you need to get into you program and you are sure that the changes you are making are not altering your max Hp, then why would you need to get another dyno.

 

It would seem more straight forward that you would just need another piece of tape.

 

As long as:

 

the tape is in place after a qualifying/race session and

the car does not make excess Hp after the qualifying session or race

 

then I see no reason to go up on a dyno just to get another piece of tape. Heck, someone could show up at the event with a program that has been touched a hundred times since the last dyno run and no one knows as long as he does not make too much Hp. Who cares.

 

If my car starts pre-ignition knock because it is not compensating for the colder weather properly and I need to pull timing, I would hate to dump another $75 on the dyno just to pull 2 degrees of timing. Or, maybe I should pull that timing right now.

 

I guess the other thing us local guys have to remember is that our region is blessed by having a dyno at the track. Other regions do not have the same dyno support we do, so they rarely/never see a dyno at the track.

 

Ed

[cstreit911]

Unfortunately sealing ports and ecu's is completely ineffective in the long run. Any physical inspection will always be. I spent enough time in my day programming chips to know. You simply set up a sequence of events so that the computer changes maps. These inputs are already tracked byt he ecu so there is no change in the wiring, it's all software. Three clicks on the wiper arm followed by two taps of the brake pedal and you switch to your cheater fuel/ignition map....

 

If I really wanted to get sophisticated (FYI I run CARBS on my car, so don't worry!) I let you seal my ECU with a Bluetooth receiver inside. I can program any damn thing I want within 100 feet. My crew strolls by with a wireless laptop and retunes my engine right before it gets on the dyno. This isn't space age stuff, it's something you could build with $100 in parts from RadioShack.

 

Here is what I propose:

 

Nearly every data aquisition system, Wii, iPhone, etc.. out there has accelerometers. These devices read, well, acceleration. You build the accelerometer into a black box and distribute them around. 10 real ones and 45 boxes with a lump of coal and a battery in them (to save aquisition costs). You input a few key factors such as tire diameter, gearing, weight, and estimated CdA (drag) of the car and the unit records. If that HP changes by any significant amount over the weekend... You're busted.

 

This would require some work and money but it's the only way to enforce this without requiring extensive car scrutineering (which still won't catch the determined cheater.).

 

It solves several key problems:

 

1) the determined tech can always find a way to cheat

2) It puts the control back in the hands of the officials

3) Low cost of aquisition, these devices exist today.

 

I've already done some homework on this and would be happy to lay it out this coming week.

[bmw22]

If I really wanted to get sophisticated (FYI I run CARBS on my car, so don't worry!) I let you seal my ECU with a Bluetooth receiver inside. I can program any damn thing I want within 100 feet. My crew strolls by with a wireless laptop and retunes my engine right before it gets on the dyno. This isn't space age stuff, it's something you could build with $100 in parts from RadioShack.

 

 

Now all we need is for everyone to do this, and then I could monitor everyone's ecu with my laptop!

 

Actually, the rest of your post is spot on. This is something Bryan Cohn and I were discussion when he departed for the world of 2 wheel racing! This is something we can investigate during the off season.

 

Holy crap...my off season to do list is getting very long!

[cstreit911]

Mark,

 

I've got some industry contacts that may be useful to the discussion. Maybe we can kibitz about it this week.

 

Chris

[bmw22]

Mark,

 

I've got some industry contacts that may be useful to the discussion. Maybe we can kibitz about it this week.

 

Chris

 

It's on my list of "topics to discuss over a few beers"

[scottbm3]

I'm sure this is pricey, but check it out. Its what they use overseas to control cars that run power to weight ratio series.

 

 

http://www.powerlog.nl/powerlog_layout.html

 

 

-Scott