2009 & 2010 NASA Nationals @ Miller Motorsports Park in UT

[King Matt]

So you actually think the aerodynamic data for the S197 chassis applies equally to ALL Mustang platforms?

[robbodleimages]

No. But its general information on the subject. As usual, its hard to say everything in s brief post. The project car is an SN95. Fulcrum doesn't have S197 wings to my knowledge. All of my information is SN95 based with the exception of the one conversation about the FR500S.

 

I hope that makes it more clear.

[Grizlbits]

I agree with Matt; yeah it happens once in a while. The Fox body needs a lot more aero help than the 05 Mustangs.

[robbodleimages]

as i said, i have no fox body data as yet

[nape]

as i said, i have no fox body data as yet

 

Let me help you. It's like putting lipstick on a pig.

[ST#97]

maybe so, but I've seen the data. I've talked to people that developed the wing for the FR500S.

 

I will also tell you that we will be publishing some of this stuff in Mustang Enthusiast and on

http://mustangontrack.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. We have a great wing from Fulcrum Motorsports and we have G force loading data acquisition from Traqmate. We will be able to see how much difference there is at twist CMP and high speed Road Atlanta with and without the wing and a splitter.

 

FR500S has about 1/2 the downforce you can generate on the nose of an SN95 or new edge car...that brick nose is terrible and the wing does nothing but make it push.

 

I can tell you that laps times on tracks in our region are 1.2 to 2.8 seconds faster with the aero package than without depending on ambient temp...I am talking race laps in TRAFFIC and disturbed air, not wide open practice laps.

 

High speed drag is going to be a problem at Miller on that long straight, but the mid to high speed turns are going to REQUIRE aero to get the car to stick. TWS is a great test track for Miller as we have several high speed turns usually just after a long straight. Main straight will see 145-150mph

down into T1 at a little over 110mph. I seem to remember a lot of 80-120mph corners at Miller.

 

The difference is going to be HP/weight. I think the 350hp cars with aero are going to be tough to beat, but will probably cook tires and brakes. Personally, I think it's a crap shoot at this point until the RM boys get up there and race on it and get us some data. Might be worth taking two different noses and trying sessions with Aero and without!

[robbodleimages]

We are going to run two sets of nose and tail package. The factory nose and deck lid on a 99 Cobra and a Steeda 00R Splitter(like Desalvo's car) and the Fulcrum rear wing. It will be interesting to see the difference.

[pbr96]

Aero packages on a Mustang don't have any effect in a corner til you are running 85/90mph.

 

Then you’re running the wrong stuff Rob. Aero is not created equal and many of the manufactures are cosmetic over function. If that is what your data shows then this is correct for that combo but not all, hell a 1/4" or even 1/16” or 2 degree change on ride height, splitter or wing angle can change that data again. And I'm not sure how much faith I would put into talking to the "people" that make (copied and compromised for production) race wings and sequential tail light kits as aero engineers.

 

You might want to do more research and have better data before making blanket statements. Just ask some of the guys running such items, you will find many opinions and options but with more and more guys having some sort of data for comparisons reasons these days it might be worth while. Maybe even start a new thread for this as research for your article. I would also recommend more accurate repeatable testing such as a skid pad, straight acceleration runs and coast downs since lap times can be subjective to many variables like traffic, tires, driver, track conditions, fuel loads, etc, etc.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[King Matt]

Excellent response Paul. And BTW Rob, if you talked to "people" at Ford Racing about the wings on the FR500S, you didn't talk to the people who developed the wing. You talked to people who tested a couple of available off-the-shelf wings and selected one for their project.

[robbodleimages]

i could be speaking totally out of school, but I was to believe the FR500S wing was developed by Paul Brown and company. The original S wing that Ford Racing put on the car was ineffective and Paul either developed or tested the current wing.

[b_tone]

i could be speaking totally out of school, but I was to believe the FR500S wing was developed by Paul Brown and company. The original S wing that Ford Racing put on the car was ineffective and Paul either developed or tested the current wing.

 

 

You realize that pbr96 is Paul Brown right?

[robbodleimages]

nope

[DaveM]

i could be speaking totally out of school, but I was to believe the FR500S wing was developed by Paul Brown and company. The original S wing that Ford Racing put on the car was ineffective and Paul either developed or tested the current wing.

 

Just to clarify...Paul Brown and "company" had no input into the development of the FR500S wing. The design of that wing is solely from another source.

 

We were invited to participate in, and provided a G-Stream Comp 800 wing for A-B comparisons during Ford's wind tunnel session of the FR500S. That was the only interaction we had.

 

The wing currently sold on the car shares no relationship to the G-Stream design other than it's an aerofoil.

 

DaveM

CPP

[robbodleimages]

apparantly i dont have a clue. that means that there is a lot of upside for me.

[King Matt]

I believe the wing on the FR500S is based on a Crawford Composites GT-1 design.

[b_tone]

i could be speaking totally out of school, but I was to believe the FR500S wing was developed by Paul Brown and company. The original S wing that Ford Racing put on the car was ineffective and Paul either developed or tested the current wing.

 

Just to clarify...Paul Brown and "company" had no input into the development of the FR500S wing. The design of that wing is solely from another source.

 

We were invited to participate in, and provided a G-Stream Comp 800 wing for A-B comparisons during Ford's wind tunnel session of the FR500S. That was the only interaction we had.

 

The wing currently sold on the car shares no relationship to the G-Stream design other than it's an aerofoil.

 

DaveM

CPP

 

 

Do you have that A to B data available?

[pbr96]

Yes, but we have not made the data public yet. Ford's wing I think is a modified Crawford copy, manufactured by a supplier, without the wicker and changed slightly for mass production and cost savings. It’s not the ultimate in weight and performance but does serve the needs of Ford Racing for that car.

 

The G-Stream wing out performed the other wings Ford Racing tested in every aspect. We were asked to quote the project, but due to our strict manufacturing process and internal quality demands, we could not lower our manufactured cost anywhere close to what Ford needed and didn't feel that making a compromised piece was in our best interest to sell 100 wings.

 

I can tell you that the wind tunnel results show the G-Stream wing making more downforce with less drag across the board. Ford asked us to hold off publishing the comparison data and we will respect that request. However, we are free to publish the wind tunnel data on the G-Stream wing. Currently Dave has been working on CFD simulations to back up the wind tunnel results as well as gather as much on-track data as possible. All of this information is critical to have on hand before broadcasting test results. Our credibility is on the line. When we are ready, the data to back up performance claims will be published on http://www.g-stream.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and not on an internet forum.

 

But don't take our word for it; talk to our customers and the racers using; and winning with the G-Stream product line. All competitive racers are looking for the edge and advantage over the next guy. If approached, most will be open and will share their experience with our products. They will tell how well the stuff works.

 

We know it works... I wouldn't sell it otherwise. Sorry guys, the initial intent was not to hi-jack the thread but just offer Rob some suggestions and advice for his article and test.

 

Paul Brown

[robbodleimages]

i appreciate that. we should probably do something with your data when you are ready to go public. it would make for compelling reading.