stevekappy Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 All, Does anyone have contact information for the Group J Race Director? If so, can someone email it to me at [email protected]? Thanks, -Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted September 16, 2008 Members Share Posted September 16, 2008 All, Does anyone have contact information for the Group J Race Director? If so, can someone email it to me at [email protected]? Thanks, -Steve Super cool dude. Anyone who has ever been lucky enough to be graced by his presence should feel like they just seen god himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninetyfourintegra Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Shawn, I said it at dinner on Friday and I will say it again. My hat is off to you for running our group. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted September 17, 2008 Members Share Posted September 17, 2008 Shawn, I said it at dinner on Friday and I will say it again. My hat is off to you for running our group. Thank you. Thanks man! Means alot to me. Im just sorry that after all my yammerings for 4 meetings in a row, someone still went out and made an unsafe re-entry and took you out. All I can do is shake my head. I saw the video today and the stills showing the incident very clearly. It aint right. What I learned is, everyone should try and have a video camera looking front and rear. Would make my job easier to sort thru the emotion of the moment. I have a Chase-Cam and im glad I have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninetyfourintegra Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 That might just be an xmas gift to myself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pushyandloose Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Thanks man! Means alot to me. Im just sorry that after all my yammerings for 4 meetings in a row, someone still went out and made an unsafe re-entry and took you out. All I can do is shake my head. I saw the video today and the stills showing the incident very clearly. It aint right. What I learned is, everyone should try and have a video camera looking front and rear. Would make my job easier to sort thru the emotion of the moment. I have a Chase-Cam and im glad I have it. Shawn, you had one tough job and I don't envy you! Good show for your first time out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vpnwiz Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Shawn, I too want to say thanks. I think you did just a great job with the obvious disparity of experience we had in our group. You made the rules black and white, the line solid... cross it and pay the price! So, "thanks". Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 People complimenting Meze, I just don't know what to say...ok all kidding aside if I had to pick someone to run a race group I was in, he'd be on the short list. Ron - sorry to hear about your incident, you've certainly been through alot this year! - Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackBaruth Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Shawn did an awesome job, and I would have supported him being more aggressive in discipline towards some folks. He had a lot of patience. While I'm on that topic... "speaking out" during the drivers' meeting is disrespectful, particularly when you're trying to argue with the RD about stupid stuff. We had too many "tough guys" in our meetings who felt like they were empowered to lecture us about stuff. It's not cool. Let the RD talk and if you feel the need to tell us all how you feel, do it on your MySpace page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miataracer55 Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Shawn, From every one at RDR, 4 cars in your group, thanks. Becasue of the storm we didn't get to say it in person, sorry about that. You did a great job with a tough group. Hope to see you again at Miller. Robert #55 Scott #15 Dennis #34 Jim #76 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisH Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Shawn, Great Job!!! You had a lot to deal with. You were fair and decisive. My hats off to you! Dennis #34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAC Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 Ditto...but you already know that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bongiovanni Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 We had too many "tough guys" in our meetings who felt like they were empowered to lecture us about stuff. I think people didn't say enough. Group J could barely get through a session all week without a full course yellow, and unfortunately all the problems were caused by a minority of drivers who either didn't listen, or didn't care. Was the tough guy Cobetto telling us about a fatality in the gravel, or was it me stupified that Shawn's lecture about multiple passes under the waving yellow turned into a big joke? We had racers in our group with hundreds of races under their belts, driving with racers with only a handful...there couldn't possibly have been too many lectures based purely on the number of people who blew yellows on the first day alone. I am truly amazed and thankful that nobody got hurt in Group J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PT SE-R Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 We had too many "tough guys" in our meetings who felt like they were empowered to lecture us about stuff. I think people didn't say enough. Group J could barely get through a session all week without a full course yellow, and unfortunately all the problems were caused by a minority of drivers who either didn't listen, or didn't care. Was the tough guy Cobetto telling us about a fatality in the gravel, or was it me stupified that Shawn's lecture about multiple passes under the waving yellow turned into a big joke? We had racers in our group with hundreds of races under their belts, driving with racers with only a handful...there couldn't possibly have been too many lectures based purely on the number of people who blew yellows on the first day alone. I am truly amazed and thankful that nobody got hurt in Group J. I'm with Jack. It's the race director's job to keep people in-line, end of story. If people want to share reminders in a calm, reasonable manner, great. If people (other than the race director) want to yell, scream, and lecture until they are red in the face, no thanks, that's not your place. Driver's are required to listen to and comply with the race director, no one else. People are joking around because they are there to have fun, make friends, etc. Yes, there were a few jack-holes in the group who couldn't seem to follow the rules, and from what I understand, they continued to do so most of the weekend. If someone really felt it was unsafe, IMO they shouldn't have been out there. If I had one improvement item for Sean it would be to also bring to light the positive aspects of the sessions. I know we had some really good racing going on out there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninetyfourintegra Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 I spoke out in one of the sessions (Saturday), I didn't think it was out of turn but perhaps it was taken that way?? It had to do with knowing if a track was green or not. I couldn't believe I was sitting in a race driver's meeting at the national championship and that question was being asked. Seriously, I was dumbfounded. There is a flag station drivers side not 100 yards or so from pit out, yellow = course is yellow, nothing = green, then there is a flag station in the keyhole passenger side - - there should never, ever be a reason that station is missed... 2 flag stations before most of us are even into 4th gear telling us track conditions. I don't car how new to the track you are or how 'hot' you want that out lap to be a a flag station is a flag station and yellow flag is a yellow flag. This comment brought to you from one of the jack-holes that didn't miss a yellow but did cause a FC yellow. Trust me and my busted up windshield, if the car would have started I would not have sat there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PT SE-R Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 I spoke out in one of the sessions (Saturday), I didn't think it was out of turn but perhaps it was taken that way?? Nope, it was cool with me and I would guess everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpeedPak Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 I appreciated your speaking up on the green/yellow course thing. Some ppl just didn't get that the course could be green from the get go... we have video that shows just how 'unaware' some of the drivers were. I DO think that Shawn did a good job as race director, though there were some of us who were making it has hard as possible for him There was def. some great close racing in group J!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackBaruth Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 We had too many "tough guys" in our meetings who felt like they were empowered to lecture us about stuff. I think people didn't say enough. Group J could barely get through a session all week without a full course yellow, and unfortunately all the problems were caused by a minority of drivers who either didn't listen, or didn't care. Was the tough guy Cobetto telling us about a fatality in the gravel, or was it me stupified that Shawn's lecture about multiple passes under the waving yellow turned into a big joke? I'm going to go with... "both of you". Let the RD talk and, if you have an issue with what he said, bring it up with him. Show him some respect, and show the rest of us some respect. What made you so special that you felt empowered to lecture the class? There were seventy drivers there. If we'd all taken our little five-minute lecture to everybody, there wouldn't have been any time to drive that day. Shawn was trying to reach everybody in a non-confrontational manner. He's the RD. That's his prerequisite. Furthermore, while I didn't know John like you guys apparently did, I found it amazingly disrespectful that his death was used as a "cautionary tale" during a driver's meeting. To stand up and say, basically, "THERE'S A GUY WHO DIED BECAUSE OF STUPID DRIVING!!!!" That's rough. Would you have felt good about saying that if John's family had been right there? If, G-d forbid, you are killed in a race some time in the future, would you want me to stand up at a driver's meeting and publicly imply that your own stupidity put you in a box? I wouldn't do that to you or anyone else. We had racers in our group with hundreds of races under their belts, driving with racers with only a handful...there couldn't possibly have been too many lectures based purely on the number of people who blew yellows on the first day alone. Take it up with the RD, take it up with Jerry, take it up with somebody. The whole idea of having a Race Director who is not racing with us is that it keeps tempers from flaring during a drivers meeting and then having it taken out onto the track. When you started yelling over Shawn, I couldn't believe it. Had I been the RD, I would have sat you down for the day and maybe the weekend. The moment we, as drivers, feel empowered to shout over the RD at the race meeting... we're gonna have anarchy. This post is not meant to be disrespectful to you, but based on your conduct in the driver's meeting, I gather you have a hot temper and you like to get agitated, and if that's the case, I invite you to seek me out in the paddock and we can handle that business to your complete satisfaction. But what I hope will happen is that we'll all listen respectfully to the RD next time and, if necessary, take him off-line and talk about our concerns. You're an experienced racer with something to share? Great. Share it with the RD. Give him the benefit of your experience. But when you decide that you are the de facto RD, that's not cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bongiovanni Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 "THERE'S A GUY WHO DIED BECAUSE OF STUPID DRIVING!!!!" That's rough. Would you have felt good about saying that if John's family had been right there? ... When you started yelling over Shawn, I couldn't believe it. Had I been the RD, I would have sat you down for the day and maybe the weekend. Chris Cobetto made the comment about that very unfortunate event. Chris owns a NASA chapter, is a damn fine racer, and a good man. When he says something, I don't question what he says or why he says it...I listen and learn the lesson. The RD, who we all agree did an excellent job in a difficult position, thanked me and Cobetto for speaking up and impressing the seriousness of this group's transgressions. As a matter of fact, about a half dozen people spoke to me after the meeting in support of illustrating the seriousness of the matter, every single one of them disillusioned about the lack of respect the racers were giving each other on track. Passing under the waving yellow is the most serious violation of the CCR one can commit, and in my opinion the ultimate disrespect one can give their fellow racers. It seems the only people who feel there is a 'respect' issue are those who don't like their own faults being pointed out. Every single racer has a vested interest in the conduct of other racers while we are on track. This sport has risks, and poor driving conduct increases those risk to ALL immeasurably. I would personally be mortified if a fellow racer had to point out how I risked his life and property by my actions. I invite you to seek me out in the paddock and we can handle that business to your complete satisfaction. This statement really shows how far away from the real issues we have wavered, and unfortunately clearly illustrates the priorities of at least one driver. Trust me, I'm no angel and have made the same mistake of making such statements, and immediately regretted it not because there was a price to pay, but because it did nothing but obsfucate the most serious issues and marginalize the true resolutions that were needed. Fact: Our group had so many serious violations that we had to have special meetings every morning. Fact: The serious violations continued right on through then end of the weekend despite everyone's best efforts. Fact: A bunch of guys went home with wrecked cars, and quite of a few of the incidents were avoidable. Fact: The RD didn't feel disrespected and the most senior guy in the group, a 'boss', felt it necessary to speak out. We can bitch and moan about bruised egos all day long, but the FACTS tell the real story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xr4racer1 Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 (edited) I do not think our group was worse than any of the others, I watched other groups all weekend. To me this is one of the biggest problems in NASA, each group has its own set of rules. I have been at all 3 Mid Ohio championships, the first 2 years as a spectator. The first year became a joke and we were betting on how many passing under yellows there would be in a race, if I remember one had 50 just in turns 7, 8 and 9. This seemed to get better last year, but even this year it was totally ridiculous. matt PTD #7 Edited September 26, 2008 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted September 26, 2008 National Staff Share Posted September 26, 2008 I do not think our group was worse than any of the others, I watched other groups all weekend especially the ST, ST2, SU, PTA and PTB. They passed under yellow more than our group, I do not know for sure but their rule for passing under yellow was after 2 or 3 there was going to be a penalty. To me this is one of the biggest problems in NASA, each group has its own set of rules. I have been at all 3 Mid Ohio championships, the first 2 years as a spectator. The first year became a joke and we were betting on how many passing under yellows there would be in a race, if I remember one had 50 just in turns 7, 8 and 9. This seemed to get better last year, but even this year it was totally ridiculous. Say what you want about SCCA vs NASA but the SCCA races do not have that crap going on. The cornerworkers call it in and you are warned and then black flagged. And by the way this is usually accomplished without 4 meetings, normally a handout with the meeting on it is included in your driver packet at registration. matt PTD #7 Matt, if you don't know what you are talking about, then please don't. I was the SU/ST/PTA-B Race Director, and everyone that was found "guilty" of passing under yellow was D/Q'd for passing under a waving yellow, or moved to the last position in class for passing under a standing yellow, just as it is recommended in the NASA CCR 27.11. If a PUY was called in by a corner worker, the driver was considered "guilty" until proven innocent by definitive video documentation. If a driver was found to PUY on another driver's video w/o the corner workers calling it in, they were similarly penalized for PUY. BTW, unless a driver is clearly a danger to others, or I saw a definite PUY myself, I would not black flag someone that was called in by the corner workers for PUY. I had the pleasure of losing a race at Cal Speedway when I was black flagged for passing under yellow "in clear view of the Race Director". Of course, his apologies after seeing the video tapes from my car as well as the cars around me did not get my win back, or the contingency money I lost back. The tapes as well as the T&S computer showed that I didn't make any pass during the time that the local yellow flag was out. You cannot unring a bell, so a Race Director should be very careful when levying penalties while the race is in progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackBaruth Posted September 27, 2008 Share Posted September 27, 2008 David, I see what you're getting at here... but along with your list of facts, consider this: Despite everything the RD said and did, despite your speaking out, despite the other fellow speaking out, you feel that there was still a ton of passing under yellow. (I'm saying "you feel" because I personally only observed one clear-cut incident of it happening, I reported it to the RD, showed him my video, and that driver was penalized.) To me, this indicates that we, as a race group, didn't find a solution to the issue. Apparently, having the RD talk about it didn't fix the issue. Having you talk about it didn't fix the issue. Having Corbetto talk about it didn't fix the issue. Slandering the memory of a friend and fellow NASA member who hasn't quite been dead fifteen months (although I'm sure that wasn't the intention, that was the way it was interpreted by at least a few drivers in the meeting) didn't fix the issue. So, to reframe this discussion more positively: what would fix the issue? As a "senior" driver, what do you suggest? I continue to be concerned about the idea of drivers simply deciding to start lecturing everybody else during meetings. It seems to me that if you put sixty or more competitive, hot-blooded people in a small area and have them start yelling at each other, at some point tempers are going to flare beyond what's reasonable. Having spent nearly two decades in a sport (BMX racing) where pre-and-post-race fistfights were neither terribly uncommon nor particularly frowned upon, I can state from experience that it tends to wear on the nerves, and knuckles, after a while Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bongiovanni Posted September 28, 2008 Share Posted September 28, 2008 (edited) There is no solution in messageboardland...all one has to do is read the tangents on this thread alone to see why. Go race right, and demand the same from your neighbor in the paddock. Just try not to get caught up in the mess from those who don't participate... Edited September 29, 2008 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pushyandloose Posted September 29, 2008 Share Posted September 29, 2008 David, Jack's asking a fair question--what do you suggest? By the way, what were you driving? I really can't put a face (or car) to a name here. FYI, Jack, we don't fight in car racing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bongiovanni Posted September 29, 2008 Share Posted September 29, 2008 Just like I said, drive right and expect the same from your neighbor...that's really all there is to it. Back in the early days of NASA there were 40+ pro7 cars running every weekend, and there was plenty of pushing and shoving (of cars...not people!) on the track. Jerry's solution was to institute a bbq every Saturday night. He figured guys would be less likely to disrespect each other on track if they had to face each other over a beer and a burger. He was absolutely right, and it worked like a charm. I can't speak for the rest of the chapters, but in NorCal if you drive like an ass, you will be singled out in the meetings in front of everyone. You will also be approached by your fellow drivers, not to pick a fight, but to be educated and coached on proper conduct. We don't let each other get out of control, and as such have some great, safe racing. There is no rocket science here, only strict adherence to the rules that are already very well defined. I was driving the black PTF RX-7 #38. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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