gbrown8439 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 How's it going, John???? Quite well, cousin, quite well. Just popped a Silver Bullet in celebration of a workday nearly completed. -JWL Drinking on the job huh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWL Posted October 31, 2008 Author Share Posted October 31, 2008 Drinking on the job huh. Of course. Keeps me open minded and reasonable. One other item is on the radar now and we're discussing it among the Directors. The issue is the Lexan side windows we're starting to see on the passenger doors, so expect a ruling on that one way or the other this evening. Feel free to offer input here if you have any. Thanks. -JWL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat L. Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 I have one on my car, but I question the safety of using them. It can't be easy for corner workers or emergency staff to figure out how to gain access to the driver when things are going bad - never mind the fact that no marking is currently required to help aide in that scenerio. Also, what if impact or contact has damaged the door handle or release mechanism... might be simpler to just ban them altogether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 No passenger side door windows. That is terribly unsafe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 I have one on my car, but I question the safety of using them. It can't be easy for corner workers or emergency staff to figure out how to gain access to the driver when things are going bad - never mind the fact that no marking is currently required to help aide in that scenerio. Also, what if impact or contact has damaged the door handle or release mechanism... might be simpler to just ban them altogether. I agree. Regardless of the ruling, I'd never have one on my car for the reasons listed above. The side net is already one obstacle you need to get past in a passenger side emergency exit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 No passenger side door windows. That is terribly unsafe. agreed... saw the one on Ryan's car at nationals and he had to unbolt it to get it out. Besides, that is one less thing I would have to fabricate for next year! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtborton Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 I don't see a problem with side windows as long as they open and close with the door and/or the driver can still exit the car in the required time limit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 If the car is laying on the driver's side and the door is jammed on the passenger side as a result of the same incident, access to the car or escape from the car is blocked. There is a reason why we race without door glass and a reason why we require HPDE cars to be driven with the windows down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trackboss Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 I've had passenger side plastic window on three of the cars I've run. I've considered the safety aspect of it, but I think if there were a reason I needed to get out of the passenger side I would worry more about the side net than the window. It doesn't take much to kick out or press through the side window the way I have it mounted. Possibly make a ruling on a certain amount of area needs to be left open (so at least some window can be installed to help prevent air/rain from entering the cockpit) or on the way its mounted. If its riveted all the way around I can see it being a problem, but if only a couple of fasteners or clips I think is easy to break through. FWIW, LeMans GT cars have windows on all sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 We are talking about club racing AI cars, not LeMans GT cars. However, LeMans GT and Daytona Prototypes are the exception to the rule. On the other hand....I say sure, go ahead and put in your side windows. Its a hazzard and a safety mistake. But its your hide. Its not something that I worry about being beaten by. Since its NASA's job to keep us safe, I think they should make it illegal. I would only complain about their ruling if they required the window. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtborton Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 If the car is laying on the driver's side and the door is jammed on the passenger side as a result of the same incident, access to the car or escape from the car is blocked. There is a reason why we race without door glass and a reason why we require HPDE cars to be driven with the windows down. There are ways to mount the window so it could still open in that situation. On our car all you have to do is push out and it falls right out...with a hole cut so a safety worker can pull it out as well. I agree you have to think of the safety before just plunking in some windows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 If the car is laying on the driver's side and the door is jammed on the passenger side as a result of the same incident, access to the car or escape from the car is blocked. There is a reason why we race without door glass and a reason why we require HPDE cars to be driven with the windows down. There are ways to mount the window so it could still open in that situation. On our car all you have to do is push out and it falls right out...with a hole cut so a safety worker can pull it out as well. I agree you have to think of the safety before just plunking in some windows. I am sure there are ways to mount it so that its safer. There are varying degrees of unsafe. To make this work you must mandate a proper mounting. Right? So, how much faster are you going to go with a window as without? Is it really worth it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horsewidower Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 Since its NASA's job to keep us safe, I think they should make it illegal. I would only complain about their ruling if they required the window. It's not NASA's job to keep us safe, its ours. There are perfectly safe ways to mount the window, if you don't want one and feel its unsafe for you, don't put it in. There is no entitlement to safety here, if that is what NASA is about then they'd send us home without turning a wheel. We have personal responsibility for our own safety, I had a hans before it was mandated, a fuel cell, and a 10 lb three nozzle fire system, etc. Safety never gets skimped on. Sorry Rob for the rant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 They mandate the H&N restraint for a reason. I believe that they require the window net to drop down. If I am correct, that is for the same reason they would not want a right side door glass. Part of it, I am sure, is insurance and liability. Like it or not, their job is to keep us safe. As I have posted, its ok with me if you put a right side door glass in your car. If you think that is the edge you need to beat the next guy. This is club racing and I would be stunned if the 0.004 of a second you are faster because of that window made a difference. They asked for comments. I made mine. If you think you need this, then its ok with me. But I am not the rules maker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horsewidower Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 I have a fundamental disagreement with your position about the responsibility for safety. Fine, let's leave it there. I've read your articles and enjoyed following along on your journey. I'm not going to get into an internet pissing match about differences in belief systems. However, a side window can be mounted safely. A little research can show you how. Why take something out of someone else's tool box because you don't have the inclination to put it in yours? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 I wouldn't call this a pissing match. I have nothing at stake. I would not put the window in and I don't see the value at this level of racing. We have a difference of opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff F Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 One other item is on the radar now and we're discussing it among the Directors. The issue is the Lexan side windows we're starting to see on the passenger doors, so expect a ruling on that one way or the other this evening. Feel free to offer input here if you have any.Here's my input: side windows are already NOT legal per the CCR. 15.10 Windows / Window Nets Unless class rules specify otherwise, vehicles should be operated with both side windows (driver and passenger) windows down (open). Note- rear side windows (e.g. four door vehicles) may be in the “up” or “down” position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 "Should" is a confusing choice of words in that rule, especially given AI rule 7.1: "Any performance modification is allowed ... ." That's easy to construe as trumping the CCR rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 i guess the question would be, is the required open/removed right side window a performance rule or a safety rule? If its safety, I don't read "performance modification" as trumping it. I am not sure if I am saying this correctly. The rule is a safety rule. The modification of it is a performance mod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 If the CCR said you "must" run with the side window down, you might have a case, but it doesn't say that. It says you "should" do it unless class rules allow otherwise. The AI rules as written allow you to run a side window if you want, so I don't see how the CCR currently prevents that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 Good point. I guess they are considering changing the should to must. We will see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtborton Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 If the car is laying on the driver's side and the door is jammed on the passenger side as a result of the same incident, access to the car or escape from the car is blocked. There is a reason why we race without door glass and a reason why we require HPDE cars to be driven with the windows down. There are ways to mount the window so it could still open in that situation. On our car all you have to do is push out and it falls right out...with a hole cut so a safety worker can pull it out as well. I agree you have to think of the safety before just plunking in some windows. I am sure there are ways to mount it so that its safer. There are varying degrees of unsafe. To make this work you must mandate a proper mounting. Right? So, how much faster are you going to go with a window as without? Is it really worth it? In a 650 hp car, a few mph at the end of a long straight like Mid Ohio....I'd say that's a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 I guess we are talking apples and oranges then. I was speaking with AI in mind. Not X. In X it might be of a little value. My last word on the subject is that I guess I really don't care. I run AI, I am in it for fun and not obsessed with winning. I won't use the window if its allowed. BTW....I have a complete set of Percy's Speedglass in my shop including the affore mentioned side windows for an SN95 Mustang. Its a spare set, if someone is interested in buying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodeoFlyer Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 now THAT's rich. Bad mouth all the guys that want to run one and then offer to sell them one. This thread is beginning to look like the CMC forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 bad mouth? where did I bad mouth anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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