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2009 - Rules engines


D Algozine

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Following previous years, rule discussion format, I started a seprate thread.

 

 

 

S&Smotorsports wrote:

Ford in a ford, chevy in a chevy. Sounds simple enough for a new rule. Costs for ai and aix are bad enough without having to try and compete with specialty engine packages.

 

 

I agree.

Either manufacturer car and engines match, or just make engines open. It's a hell of lost easier and cheeper to get an aftermarket aluminum block, vs install an LS1 into a ford, especially if you are already running a Ford engine in a Mustang. Or better yet, just dictate which aftermarket aluminum blocks are legal, such as Dart, Ford motosports, world Products...

If a Dart iron block is legal, why not a Dart aluminum block?

 

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Dave Algozine

#12 AI Midwest

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Have you compared the cost of a Dart aluminum Ford block vs. a production GM gen IV aluminum block? Have you compared the cost of a set of decent flowing SBF heads to a production gen IV head? An LS1 engine will make 320 rwhp in stock form, I think the cost argument is absurd.

 

Installing a gen IV engine into a Mustang in much easier than you may realize...there are aftermarket vendors that make the swap easy enough to do by any backyard mechanic.

 

Maybe I'm biased because I have a Mustang with an LS1 swap, but it's not as radical as people want to make it out to be...in fact I'm wondering why it took so long for people to start doing it.

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Have you compared the cost of a Dart aluminum Ford block vs. a production GM gen IV aluminum block? Have you compared the cost of a set of decent flowing SBF heads to a production gen IV head? An LS1 engine will make 320 rwhp in stock form, I think the cost argument is absurd.

 

Installing a gen IV engine into a Mustang in much easier than you may realize...there are aftermarket vendors that make the swap easy enough to do by any backyard mechanic.

 

Maybe I'm biased because I have a Mustang with an LS1 swap, but it's not as radical as people want to make it out to be...in fact I'm wondering why it took so long for people to start doing it.

 

I follow your logic, except, I already have great heads, headers, intake, distributor, bellhousing, trans, crossmember, etc... for a Ford engine in my Mustang. Plus an aftermarket drops in with zero mods. Also, I'm not a fabricator. Like many, I turn wrenches to keep the car on track.

For a shop such as yours, or someone building from scratch, you may have a good point, as it relates to cost. However, most like the roots of AI, as advertised by NASA, as a throw back series, where muscle cars ruled. Such as Z28, Boss, Chargers. It gets too fuzzy when a Mustang is running an LS1. Off the top of my head, I can't think of another series that permits mis-matched engines. In most cases, the engines are how muscle cars are identified.

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I follow your logic, except, I already have great heads, headers, intake, distributor, bellhousing, trans, crossmember, etc... for a Ford engine in my Mustang. Plus an aftermarket drops in with zero mods. Also, I'm not a fabricator. Like many, I turn wrenches to keep the car on track.

For a shop such as yours, or someone building from scratch, you may have a good point, as it relates to cost. However, most like the roots of AI, as advertised by NASA, as a throw back series, where muscle cars ruled. Such as Z28, Boss, Chargers. It gets too fuzzy when a Mustang is running an LS1. Off the top of my head, I can't think of another series that permits mis-matched engines. In most cases, the engines are how muscle cars are identified.

 

I have always thought the "open" engine rule in AI sort of detracted from the basis of old school Ford vs. Chevy vs. Mopar....but it was a loop hole and it's getting exploited. I still argue that by the rules, I could put a BMW V10 in the car as the rules currently read, but that would be rediculous.

 

I like the comment on Parity though...seems things are just fine the way they are so no need to give the SBF guys an advantage of aluminum blocks just yet...

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However, most like the roots of AI, as advertised by NASA, as a throw back series, where muscle cars ruled. Such as Z28, Boss, Chargers. It gets too fuzzy when a Mustang is running an LS1. Off the top of my head, I can't think of another series that permits mis-matched engines. In most cases, the engines are how muscle cars are identified.
Just an FYI, there are grandfathered GTS cars with mismatched engines, but the rule as of this year is same manufacturer for engine and chassis. As was pointed out in the GTS discussion, if everybody is running a 'cheap' LS1 they are just going to find something else on the car to throw money at to make them faster than the next guy. You won't stop the people who want to spend money from spending it, but you can prevent them from doing something against the spirit of the series.
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so no need to give the SBF guys an advantage of aluminum blocks just yet...

 

Everyone has the option of an aluminum block, the issue is that it's limited to stock aluminum blocks, which I understand to be the 4.6 and LS's, or perhaps others depending on how you read the rules.

Off the top of my head, I'm guessing that well over 70% of all the AI cars use the pushrod SBF. The aluminum block option for the pushrod guy is to switch over to a mod or LS. Neither is appealing or simple to me.

 

"Have you compared the cost of a Dart aluminum Ford block vs. a production GM gen IV aluminum block? Have you compared the cost of a set of decent flowing SBF heads to a production gen IV head? An LS1 engine will make 320 rwhp in stock form, I think the cost argument is absurd."

There hasn't been much success with the LS engines. I question the stock LS valve train reliability at sustained RPM's. Add those costs into the LS swap, also.

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I too think that fords should have ford power, etc., but you can't blame those who did it. The rules allowed it and some took advantage. An LS motor is a six bolt main. Its cast iron (legal in AI) equal would be an R block. Once you add the weights the LS motor is significantly lighter. There's big advantage there. In my opinion, if building from the start it will cost less to do the LS in a mustang than to (if the rules allowed it) an aluminum small block pushrod ford. The only custom part is the headers, and if you have an LS6 in there you can use the stock manifolds and make current AI power. Simply modifications to an LS make lots of power not legal in AI unless the car is stupid heavy. Of course, I never see anyone bothering with tech.

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I tought the CMC series was the throw back to the muscle car Ford vs. Chevy races.

The intent of AI according to the series rules:

2. Intent

The American Iron Series Rules will encourage each competitor to create an aftermarket-sourced configuration that will make their car perform at an optimum level. The intent of the rules is to allow competitors to use a combination of parts that will increase the performance and competitiveness of the vehicle and create promotional exposure for that vendor. It is the intent of the series to serve as a “showcase” for aftermarket tuners and manufacturers and to create tremendous exposure for their products and services while providing a friendly, accommodating, and challenging environment for the series drivers. This approach is intended to create a reciprocal relationship that will encourage the aftermarket tuners to give their full support and attention to the competitors in the series.

 

There is not much in there about racing real Fords against real Chevys. By the way since I am planning on running in AI in the future with a GM, powered by the LS1, I should be against the competition (mostly Fords) running the same engine. But I am not. The draw of AI is that you can pretty much build whatever you want. If I wanted to be restricted to what I like to do I would have looked into CMC.

 

By the way isn't the dodge hemi engines and V10's have aluminium blocks?

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I would support a rule requiring the engine and chassis to be the same marque. Grandfather all existing exceptions for five years or something like that. I think it clearly goes against the intent of the class, and more than that, it completely goes against the accessibility of the class to open-trackers. We need to make these cars seem attainable to HPDE'ers, and giving the message that they need to switch over to a chevy motor - whether it's really an advantage or not - is not the message we want to send.

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By the way isn't the dodge hemi engines and V10's have aluminium blocks?

 

Only the V10's and it won't fit in a mustang without a longer nose!

 

There is plenty of room in the f-body.

000_0066.jpg

 

 

 

The V10 might have a bit too much power for AI.

But than again there is AIX and the Venom 1000.

Pic2.php?Item_ID=142

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Chevy in a Ford is wrong. See proper Duece. No way an LS1 should be legal for a Mustang in AI - it's rediculous and shoud be quashed now! Anyone who actually did it is stretching the whole idea of AI and should be punted!

 

Just my .02

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Chevy in a Ford is wrong. See proper Duece. No way an LS1 should be legal for a Mustang in AI - it's rediculous and shoud be quashed now! Anyone who actually did it is stretching the whole idea of AI and should be punted!

 

Just my .02

 

So how do you really feel??

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I respect all the diehard brand followers out there.

 

However, I agree with the writing of the rules and the principal of what they mean.

 

Any engine (american based) in any AI car should be allowed. That includes factory and aftermarket.

 

I would love to see someone get a wild hair and make some crazy combo's. Think of the buzz it would create. Attention means more sponsors, etc..

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Chevy in a Ford is wrong. See proper Duece. No way an LS1 should be legal for a Mustang in AI - it's rediculous and shoud be quashed now! Anyone who actually did it is stretching the whole idea of AI and should be punted!

 

Just my .02

 

So how do you really feel??

 

I just had to get it off my chest, not that my opinion will make a rats ass worth of difference to anyone contemplating such a swap. And no offense to those who have exploited the rule. Frankly, I'm really just jealous that that's the only way to get an alloy pushrod block in a Mustang. However, it sure seems incongruent to disallow an aluminum ford installed as a replacement block in a ford vs. the extra cost and work to install an LS1 if simplicity and cost containment are the goals. Of course, I can see where the rule may promote a neat offbeat car like an AMC or somthing that otherwise has no viable mill from OEM.

 

Carry on . . .

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I respect all the diehard brand followers out there.

 

However, I agree with the writing of the rules and the principal of what they mean.

 

Any engine (american based) in any AI car should be allowed. That includes factory and aftermarket.

 

I would love to see someone get a wild hair and make some crazy combo's. Think of the buzz it would create. Attention means more sponsors, etc..

 

I would love to have nice ol' Carb'd 340 Mopar under the hood of my car....but I would prefer to keep engine/chassis combos the same brand.

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I would suggest the use of any engine by the same manufacturer after reading all the posts.

 

Keeps folks true to brand but does allow factory blocks that weren't offered in production cars.

 

For those of us running Fords (most) this allows full use of the ford racing catalog which ford and are sponsors may be very pleased about considering most folks are running older body styles and thus could have newer motors.

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My vote is ford is ford and chevy is chevy, do not make it half and half

if there is going to be changes let it be in AIX

Well it's allowed today in both AI & AI/X
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I am missing the entire arguement. What is the competative advantage again? I must have missed it somewhere. All cars are still governed by Power & Torque to weight correct? Do the Joe Blow spectators (read: family & crew members) notice the difference on track? I guess Joe six-pack may be more appropriate these days.

 

Besides, from what I have seen, no one has to worry. The Mustang's with Chevy's in them keep trying to spit out the motor on the track. Usually in pieces, under the cover of a heavy smoke screen.

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My one last attempt to summerize:

 

The "who cares, what brand is under the hood" theory. Me and a bunch of other purist knuckheads care. I'll try not to belablor the issue, but there are many reasons to keep engines matched with the cars.

One, as Scott mentioned, is the perception of new guys looking to get started.

Two, promotes some good clean Ford, Chevy, Mopar heated discussions, which has been going on since the beginning of racing.

Helps maintain brand loyalty (which already exists) of racers and the few fans who folllow.

Helps with advertisining and articles in brand specific magazines.

Helps to promote brand sponsorship. I know, we are small time and the manufactureres don't care about us, but maybe they do, or will. I had a Ford Racing Motorsports hat that I had to put on for some photos on the podium at Nationals. Don't think too small. The future may be different then you think. There will be a new Camaro and a new Challenger out soon. Eventually, they will make there way into AI. This may lead to some opportunities.

Plus, I always thought that certain cars have certain advantages, ie, track width, obtainable minumum weight, aftermarket support, wheel base, basic oem suspension set up, available engines, etc...

I can't imagine allowing the new Camaro IRS in a Mustang, or some kind of other crazy swap, but...an engine is okay.

 

Besides if it is open then make it open. Why limit it to just OEM aluminum blocks? Iron blocks are open. There are already SS Mustangs, so a Dart or Ford Motosports aluminum block certianly should be ok. Right now it's open...... sort of. Which is it, open or OEM ?

 

The "after market" theory. Very little Mopar to Camaro, or LS1 to Mustang engine swaps in the aftermarket, although I'm sure someone is marketing it, but to who, and how big is that market ?

Conversely, there are several aftermarket aluminum blocks available for many of the popular brands.

 

Theres more, but I'll stop. Just read the previous posts that have been submitted by others, and you'll understand the sentiment.

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My one last attempt to summerize:

 

The "who cares, what brand is under the hood" theory. Me and a bunch of other purist knuckheads care. I'll try not to belablor the issue, but there are many reasons to keep engines matched with the cars.

One, as Scott mentioned, is the perception of new guys looking to get started.

Two, promotes some good clean Ford, Chevy, Mopar heated discussions, which has been going on since the beginning of racing.

Helps maintain brand loyalty (which already exists) of racers and the few fans who folllow.

Helps with advertisining and articles in brand specific magazines.

Helps to promote brand sponsorship. I know, we are small time and the manufactureres don't care about us, but maybe they do, or will. I had a Ford Racing Motorsports hat that I had to put on for some photos on the podium at Nationals. Don't think too small. The future may be different then you think. There will be a new Camaro and a new Challenger out soon. Eventually, they will make there way into AI. This may lead to some opportunities.

Plus, I always thought that certain cars have certain advantages, ie, track width, obtainable minumum weight, aftermarket support, wheel base, basic oem suspension set up, available engines, etc...

I can't imagine allowing the new Camaro IRS in a Mustang, or some kind of other crazy swap, but...an engine is okay.

 

Besides if it is open then make it open. Why limit it to just OEM aluminum blocks? Iron blocks are open. There are already SS Mustangs, so a Dart or Ford Motosports aluminum block certianly should be ok. Right now it's open...... sort of. Which is it, open or OEM ?

 

The "after market" theory. Very little Mopar to Camaro, or LS1 to Mustang engine swaps in the aftermarket, although I'm sure someone is marketing it, but to who, and how big is that market ?

Conversely, there are several aftermarket aluminum blocks available for many of the popular brands.

 

Theres more, but I'll stop. Just read the previous posts that have been submitted by others, and you'll understand the sentiment.

 

Apparently, I have too much time on my hands. Actually, I really don't, but just the same. I thought of one other theory that I've heard, as to why a mismatched engine swap is supposed to be good thing for AI.

The "interesting to see what creative guys can come up with" theory. Now, this doesn't seem like the basis fo AI. The current AI rules are pretty open to interpretation. I don't think we want to start picking at these rules to find loop holes, becasese that could be nasty. So creativity comes from just this sort of activity. To my knowledge, pushing of the AI rules is generally not done.

 

No, I don't think this is the un-doing of AI, or that a class killer has been born, but I also think there is nothing gained from it. Edit - by it, I mean allowing brands swapping engines.

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The ultimate example of how an open ruleset can kill a great class is the Porsche 917 in Can-Am. Even F1 doesn't have unlimited, "anything goes" rules, because that will eventually result in a one-car class. Now I'm not giving anyone in AI that much credit, but in amateur racing it is definitely wiser to err on the side of caution when it comes to what is and isn't allowed.

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The ultimate example of how an open ruleset can kill a great class is the Porsche 917 in Can-Am. Even F1 doesn't have unlimited, "anything goes" rules, because that will eventually result in a one-car class. Now I'm not giving anyone in AI that much credit, but in amateur racing it is definitely wiser to err on the side of caution when it comes to what is and isn't allowed.

 

Matt, good point.

I have a tendency to ramble and my point can get lost, so...

I'm not in vavor of mis-matched manufacturers engines. I'd like to see them phased out.

 

I'm not entirely sure we need any aluminum blocks in AI. This could be just an AIX thing. Perhaps a five year grandfather for existing and be done with aluminum blocks in AI.

 

Or, if aluminum blocks remain, then open it up to a small list of widely available aftermarket aluminum blocks.

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Why is there a push for Aluminum blocks (SBF pushrod variety) in AI at all? The cost of a pushrod SBF aluminum block is outrageous, and whether or not people want to believe it, we need to be sensitive to cost in AI.

 

Other than the weight aspect what is the draw of the AL block (SBF)? I know for a fact that an SN95 can be built to 2900lbs w/driver and have a 50/50 F/R balance with an iron block (pushrod), so why again do we need AL blocks (pushrod)?

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