JWL Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 Folks- The time has come for the 2005 rules revisions. Our plan is to again accept comments until the end of the month and then work on the rules for publication in late October. As issues become clearer toward the end of the month, I will post a thread on the potential changes so you all can see what is coming prior to the rules being released. Now, how I would like the threads to be organized is as follows. To prevent the problem of having to search through a 20 page thread to find one specific issue, each technical issue should have it's own thread (i.e. one thread for ABS, one for IRS, one for whatever else is on your mind, etc.). So, you should title the thread you're starting as "2005 rules-[insert topic here]". For example an ABS thread would be titled "2005 rules-ABS". You guys can then fire at will to offer your opinions on what should and shouldn't be done as we would like to hear them. I will begin couple of topics so that we can start discussing them and hashing out the issues involved. Once we are done with the comment period, the AI Directors will consider all the topics and act upon them where appropriate. We are happy to have your input and it has been extremely important to us, but but you need to realize there is a good chance that something you want or don't want won't go your way despite your finest advocacy. The AI Directors will make the final rules decisions as a group and the rules will be published by late October so that you can have plenty of time to make sure your car is compliant for 2005. So, here we go and let's get to work. -JWL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 I have no problem with any of the rules as they stand. However, I have heard others state that they would like some of the rules clarified. I'll let them voice this request for clarification themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWL Posted September 15, 2004 Author Share Posted September 15, 2004 Keith- That's an excellent point and brings up something I forgot to mention. We will be posting "Technical Bulletins" from time to time to explain rules or grey areas where people have questions. For now, I'd like to use the rule revision season to perhaps remove some of the confusion by redrafting, but in the future you will see Technical Bulletins posted here to explain and clarify different topics. -JWL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swhiteh3 Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 BTW John, two thumbs up on the idea. I think it's the right thing to do to bring everyone into the same forum, let them discuss (hopefully with calm heads) and make the calls from here. I hope that the rules updates and "tech bulletins" go as smoothly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onralz Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 Thanks to all the directors for allowing us to voice our opinions. This is the best place to bring this opportunities up and we appreciate your attention. The people of AI make it what it is, and hopefully will continue to help drive it to an even more successful series. Mark Luna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWL Posted September 15, 2004 Author Share Posted September 15, 2004 Guys- Both of you hit the idea right on the head. I want to let you all debate this stuff back and forth and give us something to help shape the opinions of the directors as we head into the never fun and always painful task of looking over the rules. Don't be offended if I don't pop up with opinions in this early stage as the idea here is to see what you guys have to say and let some of the brightest guys (and gals) in amateur racing today hash out these complex issues. I hope that we can keep the "NASA bashing" that occurs sometimes to a minimum, but I'm used to it now so it really doesn't sting so bad anymore or bug me that much. We should, however, keep in mind that the outside world is watching and the attitude we present as a group may have far reaching and not readily visible consequences. If we can work together and keep the tempers in check, it will bode well for our future. -JWL P.S. Excellent discussions so far! Keep going! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacovini Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 I'd like to add one more thing. The discussions look like they got off to a huge start right from the get go!!! Tons of great ideas and justifications. I know folks are historically excellent at referencing the rules by section # and quoting the language whenever we have a question of legality. During some of these discussions looking forward, it would be helpful if proposed ideas/changes are referenced to the existing rules and suggested rules verbage thrown out there too! Just a thought...sometimes an idea is great, but wording it without a loophole is the trick that sometimes prevents the idea from ever becoming reality! -=- Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 One suggestion (yeah, right, just one?), get all the regions on the same page. Nothing starts more questions/controversy IMHO than to hear it's being done differently over in region XXX vs. the region I run in. I don't envy you guys this time of year but I do respect what is being done! Now, get Todd to quit making me pay for his "random" Dyno pulls, will ya?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Horse Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 This is a great idea....I look forward to seeing this process develop! My only real comment here is I want to stress to keep all of the rules general (keep the nitty-gritty specifics to an absolute minimum) to keep the series from painting itself into a corner and having to have more rules to get out of it. Make a strong, basic foundation and the series will be solid for a long time there-after. By the way, I like the Tech. Bulletin idea! - Dave Diehl OH/IN #46 AIX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swhiteh3 Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 Seems like the discussions have been productive and calm so far. I'm glad to see that it's progressing this way. JWL- I'd ask that you weigh in at least on the matters that have already been "decided" to some extent. I'm primaily meaning frame rail notching (Wilstone) and Fender Flaring (Greg Brown). Thank you again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swhiteh3 Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 Oh, one other thing. Mark Wilson was smart enough to send a link to this thread to everyone on the AI-Midwest E-Mail list. In the interest of having everyone, and especially all the regions, participate, have we made sure that all the E-Mail lists have been notified this discussion is taking place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacovini Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 Texas AI/CMC mailing list has been notified and monitoring discussions. -=- Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pederb Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 Great idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 JWL - This is going pretty well, IMO. Thanks for this. Please try to stick with the end of October for the new rule set. While I am pretty happy with the current ruleset, it appears that some proposed modifications will have implications for my car and I need to work any required changes into my plans. Having extra time would be helpful. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizlbits Posted September 29, 2004 Share Posted September 29, 2004 Maybe we could loose the "announcement" that the 2004 rules are posted at the top of this forum, as the year progresses and people start getting jumpy for the 2005 rules? Just a suggestion. Great idea on the rule proposals. I am glad this forum is open for the rules suggestions. Keep up the great work guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swhiteh3 Posted September 29, 2004 Share Posted September 29, 2004 JWL & NASA mgmt- I think it's time for the NASA management to start taking part in these discussions. Some of the rules discussions have made good progress, but are now turning into repetitive arguments that make my eyes hurt reading all the small print, and some threads have simply stalled. Let us know where the management is heading on these issues, let's start actually doing something resembling voting. I think this system is marvelous, BTW. In the future, people should ALWAYS be encouraged to start a "Rules" thread with a specific concern, and we can debate it here. But as each argument "matures", it's time for NASA mgmt to step in a say "here's what we're considering", and then ask the membership... (1) For a straw vote of opinions.... (2) For suggestions on flushing out wording.. (3) For suggestions on closing potential loopholes.. (4) For any specific concerns ( for example, does this make illegal an existing car, suspension, or part?) Then NASA needs to take those recommendations, flush out final wording, and go with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racercosmo Posted September 29, 2004 Share Posted September 29, 2004 Just because they're not sharing their own thoughts with the rest of us doesn't mean "JWL and Crew" are taking our advice and working with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilson7 Posted September 29, 2004 Share Posted September 29, 2004 I don't think there is going to be any sort of voting. If I read what JWL posted initially he basically told us to discuss the issues among ourselves and the Directors were going to make final decisions. Some of us would be happy and some wouldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onralz Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 Frankly we don't get a vote and shouldn't. This isn't a democracy. (If it were, this would be ugly) If the directors would like to set up an email for us to send them our votes and they can decide to use them or not is an option, but I don't think it should be on the public forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 Frankly we don't get a vote and shouldn't. This isn't a democracy. (If it were, this would be ugly) If the directors would like to set up an email for us to send them our votes and they can decide to use them or not is an option, but I don't think it should be on the public forum. I competely agree with you, Mark. The process should be (and is) make your case in a public forum, address any rebuttals and let the directors decide which approach has merit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swhiteh3 Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 I certainly did not mean to suggest that JWL & Co. are sitting on the arses right now. I'm sure they're working on things, reading these posts, etc. I just meant that I think it's getting to the point where they need to help focus and guide the discussions. I also didn't mean that the "voting" would be final. You're right - this is not a democracy. But I think at some point it might be in everyone's best interest for everyone to log onto certain threads and give a "Yea" or "Nay" to these issues, to get a general idea. I'm in no way saying a vote should be binding to NASA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWL Posted October 4, 2004 Author Share Posted October 4, 2004 We are indeed watching, reading, and working on the topics being discussed. I have kept out of the discussion because I wanted to keep them "clean" of any undue influence and let them run their course. You'll note that I locked one over the weekend because it had degraded to the point that it was no longer useful. I will lock other topics if they also peter out. As to timing, Ryan and I are planning to get together as soon as we're done with our LA event this weekend and start banging out the text to discuss with the directors. We'll then get it all finalized and out to you before month's end. Also, Mark L is right that this is not a democracy and that all hell would break loose if it was. We do want to give as many people what they want as possible, but we have to rely on our judgement and experience to only make changes that we believe will preserve the close competition in AI and keep AIX livable. I guarantee at least ten of you will want to put Ben-Gay in the crotch of my firesuit after we're done, but that is the unenviable poor bastard job of a series director. Hopefully you will understand why changes were made and be able to see both the rock and the hard place. We all need to take a deep breath and remember that we do this for fun and a $40 plaque at the end of the year, so please put away the jihad swords and try to take any change that gets your goat calmly. So, keep going on the discussions if you have good stuff to add. I will think about posting polls but I am somewhat suspect of their worth as not everyone is here and many prefer to keep under the radar to avoid the drama. Thanks again to all for the help. -JWL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horsewidower Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 I realize that I'm late to the game but...As a potential competitor who has spent the better part of a year researching this racing class, attending events, and preparing a plan to construct a car, I'm disturbed by the appearance of turmoil in the rules. I've had my fabricator and engine builder working on plans, I've had to tell them to sit still why I wait for the outcome of this forum. There doesn't appear to be any discussion about rules stability, yet how do you attract additional participants with "sausage making" that would concern any consumer. Frankly, some of the discourse is alarming. Some consideration should be given to "freezing" the rules for a set period of time, 3 years - five years. ?? Who in their right mind would make the investment in a series without rules stability. Unless you're already satisfied with the number of cars in the class, set the rules, leave them in place for a specified period of time and ruthlessly enforce them. I apologize if I offend any of the entrenched interests but I'm concerned about making sure I'm joining a series and class that is growing in popularity not one that is dying. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 Based on the responses, I'm sure the directors have been busy the past several weeks. What is the time frame for the release of the 05 revisions? I'm trying to formulate my winter attack plan, and would like to get an early start. Thanks agian for the opportunity to voice our opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWL Posted November 1, 2004 Author Share Posted November 1, 2004 Dave (and everyone else)- The first draft is done and we're discussing and measuring stuff now to make sure we're on the right track. We are going to work this further over the next two weeks with a target release date of 11/17 or so. Sorry for the delay, but we wanted to make sure we got it right. Thanks for the patience. -JWL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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