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Balroks

Cage builders..

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Balroks

I hear ya....now i gotta just find a way to get the car there...and get home somehow lol. Who's got a trailer i can borrow lol. I can get my Dad's, but i'll need a storage place in Orlando...anyone got recomm's of ones that arn't in the ghetto?

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TurboShortBus

What's wrong with renting something from U-Haul?

 

Mark

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Balroks

Tempting but i'd rather use something i know is reliable, plus He's got the trailer already, wants to give it to me for trailering the soon-to-be-racecar, and i just need a place to store it?

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Jeff9962
Tempting but i'd rather use something i know is reliable, plus He's got the trailer already, wants to give it to me for trailering the soon-to-be-racecar, and i just need a place to store it?

 

My storage unit is at Southern Self Storage on John Young Parkway just south of Silver Star near the Frito Lay plant. They have surface parking in the back for trailers, boats, etc. It's gated and you can't even see the surface parking from the road so no one knows it's even there. No idea what part of town you're in but I thought I would throw it out there. 407-299-6186 is their number.

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Balroks

Sweet, thanks bro. BTW i'm down in the Metrowest area, SW Orlando. I'm familiar with the Chip factory location so that could work.

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racecarbuilders

balrocks ..thanks and looking forward to it... i think you will be happier in the end...i have had more than a few cars delivered with u haul trailers ... i wont hold it against you LOL ..give me a call when you get it sorted out

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Balroks

Dropped it off this afternoon and looking forward to the coming weeks of pics You gotta see his work in person, WELL worth the drive.

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racecarbuilders

thanks.. i try real hard to make it the best that can be done ... somtimes the customer has there own ideas ..ill do whatever you want as long as it is safe and meets the rules ... there car they are paying the bill ..we got started on it thursday morning and spent most of the day removing the dash door panels ac windows ect ..we have a big pile of stuff ..she is real empty now... we got the main hoop and the rear fabed and 1 a pilar arched today... we will be back on it monday morning ...

Edited by Guest

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Balroks

So far VERY good

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Coming to a track near your rear view mirror Manny

SUNCOASTPORSCHESebringMay122007DL-1.jpg

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Gators2001

NICE!

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Balroks

Damn this guy's good....and quick. Cage is done except for paint. I opted for a few changes to Manny's original design but I think we may have a winner Also having him mount both racing seats, harness's, OMP steering wheel, and jack pads. Mark - doooo it, doooo it now.

 

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A bit more efficient then this :

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obzezzed350

I dunno, I think Mannys looks alot more beefy

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Balroks

It should, he's using 1.75 where i'm using only 1.5 inch bars, plus a lot of changes to what goes where. It looks empty as hell now but i'll post pics up as the rest gets installed.

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racecarbuilders

there are pros and cons to each ..but i have no reservations about either cage doing its job...after 6 years and almost 400 cars ...i have had a few tested and they all did well ..one of my grand am cup cars hit the wall at about 140 flipped over and hit another wall with the rear..when i got that phone call i have to admit my heart skiped a beat ..and the boys reeled up ....all was well they could still open and close all 4 doors ..they were going to bring me a new shell for another ..

 

balrocks is more like my grand am cup cages with the exception of a petty bar and gussets in the x ...and a full x in the rear ..a single diag is lighter but not quite as twist resistant but alot of big teams go this route ....sorry dont have a chassis dyno ..to know just how much ... x in the door makes it stiffer ...but it is harder to get in and out and makes it tighter for the driver ..that is why you see nascar bars in the drivers side so often ..the trend lately has been to build x in both doors then make a sheetmetal box inside of the drivers door area and fill it with a 2 part foam ...basically great stuff to absorb energy ...some also fill their rockers with it to help stiffen things up.... not much weight and it supports the inner structures inside the rockers ..miata guys do it all the time ,,,and if you crash into the pond well ...you float... LOL just kidding ...the gussets with a set back main hoop that go from the harness bar crossing the b pillar up to the roof ...i really like for strength in the event of a roll over.... supporting the long streach over the door ..when it is stitched to the b pillar it also adds significant strength it ...making a truss out of the b pillar ..these bars are required on the FIA world ralley cars ...they have OMG cages.... i have done them... alot of work ...i understand why they have the cages they do ... they seem to fly them over cliffs all the time ...having the cage touching all over makes it significantly stronger even if it isnt stitched in the event of a roll over because instead of the force of the impact being applied to just the cars structure colapsing it ....then putting all the force to the cage ..the force must move both stuctures together taking much greater force.... kind of like a dent in the side of a coke can ...once it is compromised it is really weak ...that is also why stitching the cage adds so much strength and stiffness

!!!!check the rules but it used to be worded welded to the body more than 6 inches from the attachment points ..so people were using the 2 part epoxies and bonding it together for the same affect but check the rules!!! good racers follow the rules ...real good racers will get them changed

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racecarbuilders

oh and the cage weighed in at 150 lbs as shown ...just FYI I WILL RENT MY SCALES FOR CAR SET UP ....USE THEM IN MY SHOP FOR THE DAY ..YOU MAKE THE ADJUSTMENTS AND SAVE $$$$ ..

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Team BDR

The cage work looks great, but the welds to the body parts is not approved by any sanctioned racing division. You may want to check this but you car will only be good for time trial and will actually hurt resale by attaching the cage to body parts in this manner. I usually stay out of commenting any more, but this will definitely cost you in the long run.

 

Good luck on the TT for 2009, Jimmy is one fast EVO, get with him, I am sure you will have a blast...

 

 

Team BDR

#179 91' Miata SM

Nasa TT Florida sponsor

Nasa Florida SM director

Cliff Blanchard

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racecarbuilders

true stitch welding is not allowed in stock classes of scca and most pec type classes they know it makes the car much stiffer ... once you go to any modified class it is all good ...all pro cars are stitched or gusseted they even dip the cars and seam weld every seam in the car...great .. if you have unlimited money... all grand am cup cars are.... as well as any p classes in scca... in nasa they do count it as a mod it cost 2 points... lt is talked about before it is done.... i build them the same fit weather i stitch them or not is up to the customer... almost done with all the little stuff ..should have more pics tomarrow

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TurboShortBus

There are a lot of cage rules and limitations in NASA, TT, and CMC that I consider to be pretty goofy, in my opinion. CMC won't allow you to install extra tubes if they are only for chassis rigidity, and only allow extra tubes for driver safety (for example, a tube that connects the 2 rear shock towers of a Mustang together as part of the cage). Who can really argue one over the other? I seriously doubt that an extra piece of tube here and there will give anybody a competitive advantage; they will likely have a minimal effect on performance, if at all. But, if those couple of tubes just happen to give a slight advantage in a crash, then I'm all for them. At least the TT rules only hit you with a couple of extra points for taking a few extra steps here and there, but you're still allowed to run the car per the rules.

 

I guess cars like the Mustang FR500C (as built by Multimatic) are somewhat SOL from the start, since they have plates welded between the cage a-pillars and the unibody a-pillars, connecting them. I have been up close and personal with a couple of Bimmers lately with factory-installed cages (older E36 and Koni Challenge E46), and they tie the cages into the stock unibody roof members. Somebody must have thought that they were a good idea.

 

A few people on the CMC site were whining about somebody's cage a while back, calling it illegal for having the aforementioned shock tower crossbars. I would hate to think that this particular car would show up at Nationals and fail tech inspection because of something like this.

 

What happens when somebody wants to add footwell extensions to their cage in order to make the car SCCA-legal? I don't think that these are mentioned in the CCR, so would that make them illegal?

 

I'm just not convinced that the rulebook shows an ideal cage; rather, just a good, basic foundation for a cage design. But, I don't think that we should be limited to it, either.

 

Mark

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kbrew8991

the cage outline is only what is required - read your class rules for the maximum. If its not "safe" enough for you, pick another class... sorry. I think if you look at the TT/PT stuff that was mentioned specifically, you can add your footwell bars without taking a single point (bold added for emphasis)

 

4) One or more bars that are welded to the chassis (directly or with a plate) anywhere farther

than 6” from the end of a tube where it terminates at a plate +2

 

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TurboShortBus
If its not "safe" enough for you, pick another class... sorry.

That's one of the main reasons why I'm not in a hurry to get into CMC (check their cage rules), and will likely stick around in TT. I would rather build a cage that my engineer buddies and I feel is structurally sound and safe instead of blindly following a rulebook suggestion.

 

Mark

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Balroks

Uh....ya...I hate to quote black and white but if that's what it takes... I said in the beginning of the post that this was going to be a TTS+ and ST2+ car....then who knows.

 

6.2.1 TTR Eligibility

Roll cage modifications are unlimited, as long as they pass NASA safety

technical inspection. (which i think BDR will agree is above and beyond)

6.2.2 TTU and TTS Eligibility

that complies with all NASA safety requirements in the CCR, and all of

the restrictions and limitations listed below (6.2.3) is eligible to compete based on the “adjusted”

weight/power ratios below:

 

1) Every vehicle must retain its OEM front clip, floorpan, and subframe. Tube-frame

chassis conversion (partial or complete) is not permitted without a waiver from the

National TT Director. Floorpan modifications to include items such as subframe

connectors, roll cage bracing, may be approved on a case-by case

basis by the National TT Director. Such modifications will be subject to approval

and possible modification factor assessments.

 

Continuing past TT:

 

7 Super Touring (ST1 & ST2)

7.1 Class Eligibility

Any closed wheel/fendered production vehicle, approved for street use by the D.O.T., T.U.V., or

Japanese government, that complies with all NASA safety requirements in the CCR, blah blah blah

 

7.2 NASA CCR Section 15 and 18 Exceptions

All of the rules listed in the NASA CCR Sections 15 and 18 will apply, except, the following

rules will supercede those in the CCR:

CCR 15.6—Roll cages may be built to provide an unlimited amount of chassis stiffening.

Any number of cage mounting points may be used above the six (6) minimum

requirement, and, any number of additional tubes may be used above the minimum with

additional attachment points to the body, including tubes that penetrate the firewall.

CCR 15.8—An electrical master cut-off switch is required.

CCR 15.9—blah blah blah...

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Balroks
If its not "safe" enough for you, pick another class... sorry.

That's one of the main reasons why I'm not in a hurry to get into CMC (check their cage rules), and will likely stick around in TT. I would rather build a cage that my engineer buddies and I feel is structurally sound and safe instead of blindly following a rulebook suggestion.

 

Mark

 

Exactly. I took the suggestion, read the restrictions, and sat down with my chassis engineer, and designed it. Isn't that how everyone does it?

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TurboShortBus
Isn't that how everyone does it?

Isn't this how everyone does it? lol...I gave a few basic measurements to my mechanical engineer buddy, and he's tinkering with a design in SolidWorks (currently missing a couple of tubes, showing a couple of extras, etc.), with the eventual goal to be to plug it into some sort of a program that will tell how rigid it is after adding a tube here, deleting a tube there, etc. He's out of town for a few months at a time for work, and being stuck in a Courtyard by Marriott without any cars around, he looks for projects...so, this should keep him going for a while.

 

Mark

 

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Balroks

I asked if anybody thought about cad'n it out earlier, but you kept quiet Looks good man.

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kbrew8991

the "if its not safe enough" crack was most definitely directed at you Balroks and it sounds like its intended target is also making a good decision for their worries & all

 

The "X" style door bars probably do provide good stiffness, but I would hate to get hit really hard in the side with that config, less space to absorb the impact before you become a "crumple" zone. I don't think there is a rule saying you can't have the X sitting behind a pair or more of "NASCAR" style door bars, is there?

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