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Balroks

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Balroks

Great work as usual buddy, digging that color/wheel combo on the ZR1

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racecarbuilders
Great work as usual buddy, digging that color/wheel combo on the ZR1

 

 

 

thanks...on the complement..

LOL its the same as yours...

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TurboShortBus

As a general statement, if you are designing or fabricating a roll cage that is intended for a wheel-to-wheel competition car, then you should be mindful of all requirements in the NASA CCR including, but not limited to, these particular items (italics added for emphasis):

 

15.6.6 Main Hoop

The main roll cage hoop should be as wide as the full width of the interior and must be as close to the roof as possible without violating CCR section #15.6.20 Inspection. One continuous length of roll bar tubing shall be used as the main hoop. The main hoop must consist of not more than four (4) bends maximum, totaling one hundred eighty (180) degrees +/- ten (10) degrees.

15.6.19 Bending Allowances

If the maximum number of bends permitted for any one bar is exceeded, all required components shall be made from the tubing size listed for the next heavier category and must be approved by a NASA race tech shop or scrutineer.

This is not to say that a tech inspector somewhere wouldn't approve a cage with a main hoop containing 5+ bends over 200 degrees without going to the next larger tubing size, but you wouldn't want to open yourself up to a subjective discussion that could cause the cage not to be certified. You also wouldn't want to have a cage approved in your region, only to find that it doesn't pass inspection at the national level if you go all the way to Utah or Ohio for the National Championships. If you follow the CCR without deviation, then you cannot go wrong.

 

Mark

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racecarbuilders

mark i know you are doing yours yourself this is probably your first cage... without the expierience of knowing what is acceptable and what is not..i agree you should follow the gcr to the letter..

 

you have seen first hand what happens when my cage takes an extreme hit..you know as well as anyone... .they dont fail...nor have i ever had a cage fail tech anywhere or in any sanctioning body...

 

you are correct..the rules do read 4 bends...but understand... the reality of it is ..you can't get many main hoops above and outside of the drivers head..in many of todays cars with only 4 bends...because of the shape of the roof lines...the rule is a little obsolete really... but it is still there ...i agree..in the 70 when the rule was written..the cars were square boxes 4 bends worked fine..but it doesnt in many of todays cars... most of your cage builders today have to put more than 4 bends in a main hoop to make them work..but most of the time we dont need to go over the 180 + - 10 deg..usually one or 2 bends are only @10 deg for fit..from an engineering standpoint 2 smaller bends are stronger than one big one because it spreads the load over a bigger area. but i agree the rule is the rule..

 

the corvette (which is what i think you are referring to mark) is another example of the rules not working ... it is impossible to get a main hoop in a corvette..and many other cars...2 inches above the drivers helmet without putting the hoop outside of the car...that is why the corvette has the funny hump..it is to get every bit of height protection possible.. it is supported buy the diagonal.. and an x .. the way i make the joint on the diagonal it is double thick above the drivers head..people have often as why i do my joint like that ..that is why.. FYI it is heavier than tubing than required.. that car is a zr1 aluminum frame carbon body one..only weighs like 2800 lbs..the hoop is 1.75 x 120 wall dom..

 

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like in may other places in life ....there is the text book .... then there is reality ..thankfully the tech inspectors are realistic ....they are not there to try and fail a cage ...if they are thay shouldnt be in that position.....there job is to look at and make sure it is safe..

 

i don't think i have ever done a minimum cage ... they allways exceed the mininum requirements in some way....as long as the cage is properly constructed and welded the 4 bends thing has never been a problem with the tech inspectors..

 

i have been building roll cages full time professionally for over 10 years.. 8 of which under my own name and have done over 400 cages to date...for cars competing in NASA CHIN NHRA SCCA IMSA and WORLD RALLEY you name it i have probably built a cage for it...without a failed tech inspection..or failer in an incident...i have enough expieience to know what will work be safe and pass tech.....that is why i get work from companies such as champion motors sports , brumos and extreme speed and performance..and my business is mostly based on referral business..and word of mouth ...i would hope the last 15 pages of work and comments shows what may customers think..

 

thanks

Anthony Breon

Edited by Guest

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TurboShortBus

To all,

 

First, note that I do not take issue with any roll cage main hoop design that has been posted in this thread, so my general statement was exactly that.

 

Additionally, in lieu of deleting my post from this forum, let me clarify that my previous post was not intended as an affront to Anthony's work or his business, as I felt that I chose my words carefully so as not to "sandbag" him or anybody else. Anthony and I have met and chatted at recent NASA events, and I would like to think that he is aware that I would never intentionally speak ill of his work in a semi-public forum such as this. I have personally seen his fabrication work in several cars (orange 944, Lindstrom's AI Mustang, Rene's Mustang, etc.), and his work is damn good.

 

I was only referring to the black-and-white wording in the NASA CCR when it comes to main hoops in roll cages for wheel-to-wheel competition cars, as I stated. For HPDE or TT use, based on my interpretation, "anything goes" as roll bars or roll cages are not required items.

 

Note that I have studied several sets of rules for roll cages, as well as dozens of examples of cages (many of them questionable), over the past year before recently undertaking the effort of building my own cage in my 2004 Mustang (I have more time than spare money these days). Any time I am in a situation where I'm wondering, "should I do this or should I do that?" I refer to the CCR and let them make the decision. If the CCR do not specifically address it, then I try to make my best educated guess based on my somewhat limited engineering experience as an architect. I have also learned that there are 5 million ways to skin this cat, and even the best cage designs contain compromises.

 

I deal with building codes, construction documents, contracts, and specifications on a daily basis; as a rule, I can not and do not deviate from them. Building a structure that does not meet their requirements increases the chance for some sort of failure (maybe the roof will leak, maybe it will fall down, or maybe nothing happens) and the resultant litigation; building a structure that exceeds their requirements means that I'm spending too much, and whatever profit I may have had in the job is reduced. Unfortunately, the CCR and other rule books (including building codes) are not perfect and may or may not be written by the proper individuals, but they are the guidelines to which we must refer.

 

My previous comments were directed at anybody who might be fabricating or designing a cage, and as a reminder to study the applicable rules carefully. While 9 out of 10 inspectors could likely approve a cage that has a main hoop that might not necessarily meet 15.6.6 to the letter of the law, I would not expose myself to the chance that I would get that 1 in 10 inspector who won't approve it. Going forward, I feel that there is definitely something that can be learned here, hence my reluctance to delete something that could be somewhat educational. I apologize for any misunderstandings.

 

Mark

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Balroks

I agree with both of you, and they both go further to improve upon the informativeness of this particular thread. I'll also plug roll bar/cage/fire suit/hans etc should be part of the TT rules, as some of us know has saved a few necks....as a reference to the rules not being .....current.

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TurboShortBus
I agree with both of you, and they both go further to improve upon the informativeness of this particular thread. I'll also plug roll bar/cage/fire suit/hans etc should be part of the TT rules, as some of us know has saved a few necks....as a reference to the rules not being .....current.

Some of our TT lap times are pretty nuts, and when you realize that roll bars, cages, fire suits, HANS devices, etc. are not required (because TT falls under the HPDE guidelines as a means to make it convenient and accessible), the times seem even more insane. Who remembers Spanky's 2:18 lap around Sebring in his Z06, wearing only jeans, sneakers, a T-shirt, gloves, and a helmet with no additional rollover protection and just the OEM 3-point belts? In contrast, I was wearing my Sparco 2-layer suit in HPDE-3, because I had already bought it for the 24 Hours of Lemons and figured that I might as well use it if I already owned it (since it would be stupid to burn up in the car if I left my $600 fire suit at home because a couple of other guys thought it looked goofy). Many TT cars are primarily street cars, and driving a car in TT without a roll bar can be just as bad as driving a car on the street with a roll bar without the protection of a helmet; a minor street crash becomes worse when you basically take a 1 3/4" steel pipe to your unprotected head. After a while, dual-purpose cars become dedicated track cars.

 

But, just because certain safety equipment isn't required doesn't mean that you can't take the initiative to install it anyway.

 

Fortunately, some of our drivers' wives are becoming aware of what their lap times mean, and are forcing their guys to install more safety gear in their cars. There was a pretty serious incident in front of me in turn 1 at Sebring in June that prompted me to park the car and start building the cage, since it's only a matter of time until I run out of talent as well. This re-bodied 1978 Fairmont that I drive will not hold up in a 128 mph crash at Road Atlanta if something goes awry, so it's time to address its shortcomings.

 

Mark

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Shawn M.

Anthony Breon is clearly a pro and beyond that, a true craftsman. Amazing work. Anthony.

Somthing to consider is, the CCR is directed at the guy who is doing it themselves. This sport invites people to do it themselves. Mostly because were all poor and cant afford to drop the car off monday and pick it up friday with a trick Anthony Breon cage making the rest of the car look ugly. So the CCR is a guideline for the average Shawn. I mean Joe! Its a challenge to build a cage or suspension ect. on a car when thats not your fortay. I watched a guy pull and install a Corvette motor this week at Miller who isnt even a mechanic. Took him 3 days to do it, but he got it done. The CCR is a guideline that should be followed by all, but when there is a question about something you can ask and get an answer.

 

I dont ever want to see a car show up to an event that has the main hoop welded together in the middle. This is why we have a CCR.

 

(BTW, my first cage I built I had to make 5 A pillar downtubes because I kept bending them the wrong way. I made 4 lefts. Ahh thems the days....!) When I wrecked the car, the cage didnt move. Do your research, it pays you back with your life.

 

Thats all I have to say about thayat.

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TurboShortBus

I fixed your post, Average Shawn...

 

Mark

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racecarbuilders

quote"Fortunately, some of our drivers' wives are becoming aware of what their lap times mean, and are forcing their guys to install more safety gear in their cars."

 

ya so true..i have sold more than one cage that way... it doesnt mater if you are just track daying or racing when you miss your breaking marker in sunset corner and go into the tire wall ...at least i dont have a hard sell on the wife side...they do usually let them spend the money on the safety stuff alot quicker than the go fast stuff...

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TurboShortBus
The CCR is a guideline that should be followed by all, but when there is a question about something you can ask and get an answer.

While we are on the subject, is there a single authority at NASA to whom we can direct roll cage questions? I had a few questions about a year ago, but I was unable to get any answers from the NASA HQ when I called. I know that there are inspectors in each region (and all with their own interpretation), but I'm looking for the authority.

 

Mark

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Shawn M.
The CCR is a guideline that should be followed by all, but when there is a question about something you can ask and get an answer.

While we are on the subject, is there a single authority at NASA to whom we can direct roll cage questions? I had a few questions about a year ago, but I was unable to get any answers from the NASA HQ when I called. I know that there are inspectors in each region (and all with their own interpretation), but I'm looking for the authority.

 

Mark

 

 

Id have to defer to regional experts. (assuming they exist?)

Those type of inspections are best done in person.

know any pro cage builders who could double as cage tech consultants?

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Shawn M.
I fixed your post, Average Shawn...

 

Mark

 

 

Im not trackin with you bro. My head is still spinning from Miller.......

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TurboShortBus
Id have to defer to regional experts. (assuming they exist?)

Those type of inspections are best done in person.

know any pro cage builders who could double as cage tech consultants?

I actually go to your side of the globe and check with Alan Blaine when I have questions, as he fabricates and inspects for NASA.

 

Mark

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Balroks

I'd say it'd have to be someone who couldn't profit in any way, in order to guarantee impersonality with the issue. So someone *coughmark* should to go cage school over at RaceCar and become Mr. uber inspector

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TurboShortBus
I'd say it'd have to be someone who couldn't profit in any way, in order to guarantee impersonality with the issue. So someone *coughmark* should to go cage school over at RaceCar and become Mr. uber inspector

Matt,

 

I'm not sure that you are understanding the point. "Cage School" is the CCR. If you follow it to a tee, then there will be no problems with inspection or approval.

 

I have studied the CCR inside and out for the past year while researching various cage designs, and I think I'm pretty familiar with it by now. Based on a conversation I had with one of our cage inspectors yesterday, I'm more familiar with it than he is.

 

There is a long but informative thread entitled "Cage Design" on Corner-Carvers.com that I would recommend to you.

 

Mark

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Balroks

I know buddy, just giving you sh*t So who does our yearly race tech's?

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TurboShortBus

I believe that our NASA-FL cage inspectors are Chris Burson, Juan Paulino, and Pat Wehmeyer. Or maybe only 2 of those 3, but I'm not totally sure.

 

Mark

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racecarbuilders

been busy at a few more..just to let everyone know i usually get busier after the first of the year so if you are thinking about it... give me a call so i can get you on the schedule..ill need the car for about 7 to 10 days...

 

finished this zo6 for breathless performance...aluminum frame ..full interior..ac heads up display everythiing is still there ..made it OMG tight fit..

 

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this is a little 93 911

 

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the yellow car here is a 350z i am in the middle one of he instructors down here...i have a boxster sitting in the other bay ..getting preped ..

 

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anyway if anyone needs anything please feel free to give me a call at

772 219 9917

thanks anthony

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Balroks

Nice work as usual buddy, did any of these guys say what class they'll be in if any?

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obzezzed350

That is Vicente's car so he will be PTB. He may run PTA for the competition since we should have a few next year.

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racecarbuilders

just wanted to post something..for those looking to get a cage installed

 

i really try and run my shop as prfessional as possible and do what i say i will when i say ill do it ...i think the last 17 pages should show that i do..

 

unfortunaty i keep hearing horrible stories at the track about expieriences people have with roll cage guys...be aware there are alot of back woods cage guys..out there they tell you what you want to hear but dont deliver..and have no business doing roll cages putting peoples lives a risk and some of these are so called "professional shops" i would like nothing more than to run these black sheep of my business ..out of business..

 

when the time arrives that you are considering putting a cage in your car.. it is a big decision ...it is no longer going to be that street car..believe me when i say i understand the reservation in doing so most cages i see leave alot to be desired..but it doesnt have to be like that...unfortunatley yes a roll cage could be the worst thing you ever did to your car... or something that is just there you dont even notice....depending on how it is done ,,unfortunatley once it is in... it is in... it would be very diffcult to remove and redo...i am not saying everything i have ever done is perfect but i do try ..i would put any 10 of my cages up against 10 of anyone elses..take a close look at most of the cages at the track you can see a difference in how they fit compared to what you see here.....

 

just saying when that day comes take the time to so choose your shop carefully..me being in the business..having worked in other shops..knowing a little bit what is out there...hearing what i hear from my customers for the last 10 years... just a few things to look /look out for...

 

if at all possible go to the shop and meet the builder in his shop before you take your car to him ..if he does this type of work for a living he doesnt need to see it..to know what he needs to do..

 

when selecting a shop look for referances and a healthy protfolio..pay close attension to how everything fits..in all he cars..i have 5 books of pictures you can look at..and that isnt all of them.. i dont need to show you 5 of the same car..in 5 colors.....take notice of the shop in the background... is it there shop and or equipment in the background ..yes sometimes we move..i have seen pictures of cars in my shop on other peoples web sites.. pay paticularly close attension if they are new or have a limited portfolio..

 

talk with people they have worked for if possible..make sure they got there car back in a reasonable amount of time..look at the work the welding..ect..pictures are pictures ..real life is when you truely apreciate someones craftsmanship..or hacking it in..pm any of the guys you see there cars here at the track or on my site..

 

is it what they do full time??? or is it a part time gig??? or supplimental to there core business??? if it isnt what they do for a living..be careful ...i have been dong this full time for 12 years and 10 under my own name..and over 400 cars under my belt..i do work for brumos ..champion motorsports..and extreme speed the patron team as well as counless local racers..

 

that race car prep shop is fine for plumbing wiring and suspension....but probably isnt the best choice for your cage ...if they say they do it in house ??? are they going to buy some ill fitting kit and weld it in or are they going to custom bend it for your car..to your specs..to fit you?? every driver and car is a little different... the cage needs to be taylord to you..if they are truly doing it in house..you should see benders knotchers and a tubing rack in the shop.. even at that they probably prep shops usually only do a few a year..even in the slower times we are having i am still doing 40 cars a year have been as high as 75 a year..go to a roll cage specialist...most prep shops sub that type of work out because it is very dirty.....then who knows who is doing your car...

 

realize price isnt everything..we spend how much on a set of tires ..most of the cars come in with 1200 -1500 dollar seats and 500 dollar steering wheels ...really in the big scheme of things what is a few hundred dollars more for a good cage?? go with the cheaper sterring wheel put the money in the cage it could save your life... roll cage prices have been about the same for 15 years now..what was the labor rate 15 years ago .it is a tough business.. look for a fair price..understand extra bars and extra work should be charged accordingly ..there isnt the profit margin in this business to give big discounts..it is very labor intensive..if they are cheaper there is a reason...

 

just because the shop down the street doesnt make it the best choice.. i have cars transported to me all the time..from hours away because of the reputation and quality of work i do..you drive to the tracks ..take the time drive to a reputable qualified chassis shop ..a roll cage is kinda like a tattoo it will be with the car for the rest of its life..

 

even in this slow time..i still have a short back log...because of my following and reputation ...if you can get right in ..they dont have any work...there may be a reason....or even worse if you show up and the shop has 10 or 15 cars sitting there in differnt states of completion..that may look impressive..it is a HUGE red flag. if he only has 1 or 2 employees your car may end up sitting in the back collecting dust with the rest of them..he may have just needed your deposit..

 

small shops are fine ..they have very tight quality controle there reputation is everything to them and they work hard to keep it good...the owner is probably going to be the one doing your car..but they should only have the cars in the shop they are currently working on...possibly one ready for delivery...or next in line. those big shops take a steady flow of massive amounts of work to sustain..i have been 3500 sq ft and had 3 employes ..took massive work just to keep the overhead paid.

 

you should not expect the chassis shop to work without a deposit.. it isnt good practice in any business to work without a deposit..a typical deposit is about half the expected bill ..with the rest do upon completion...if they want it all up front be careful...or if they ask for more money ..after the initial deposit..havent started your car...get your money back and get out...if it is an exceptionally large job..say over 10,000 something like a tube chassis .. i will ask for another 25% when the job is about 1/2 complete..

 

typical drag race chassis shops usually use ERW tubing..it is leagal for NHRA be careful..it is illeagal for road race caes ..it can split open in an accident...and you cant really tell after it is painted..DOM is more expensive..i have even been i shops where they uses water pipe..make sure they know exactly what they need to be using..if they are a drag race specific shop ..they know how to bend cages and weld ...i do molly TIG welded drag race chassis as well ....but started my career working for orbit .. my heart has allways been with road racing... some shops dont really know where to begin with a road race cage..again look at the portfolio

 

is the shop a mess ..yes, they do get messy during the day but is it this prodject and todays mess or 5 prodjects worth and weeks mess..if there are parts and lunch scattered all over and you cant see the tops of the benches.and the floor looks as though it hasnt been swept in a month ..beware..it should be reasonably clean and organised...

 

once you have selcted a cage guy..there are a few things you should be aware of in dealing with chassis shops...you do have a part in the outcome of you cage..

 

if possible the roll cage should be done before any paint...i allways say my wife doesnt put on her makeup then get in he shower there is an order to things...unfortunately with race cars.at this level that isnt how it usually goes down..it is crazy dirty job you will have to clean your car when it is done...i vaccume them a few times in the process and they still need cleaned when i am all done...wax it before you drop it off so the metal dust isnt right on your paint..and dont let it get wet before you wash and clay bar it..after you pick it up....the metal dust will rust ...i tape off all the windows and tops of the fenders if i have to work over them ..your shopp should as well those sparks off the grinder will embed themselves in your glass...

 

understand those beautiful pro cars start life as a race car...empty no wiring no glass nothing inside of the car..sometimes they are acid dipped and stich welded ..then when they are caged they go to the body shop and get painted inside and out..i understand most of us dont have that budget...the welding sparks are going to leave burn marks on your floor nothing you can really do about it..i put a welding blaket down to minimize it but they still find there way ...just realize the extent the pros go to to get the look you see...those guys spend 10,0000 getting the car preped a tig welded molly cage and it all painted..it is all in the finishing...after the cage guy.

 

if he asks you to remove the interior before it arrives..do so..dont expect him to do it for free..it takes almost as long to deal with the interior as to do the cage...once you are putting a full roll cage in it ...admit it is a race car..remove the ac and interior..you arnt getting the best of both worlds you are getting the worst...a heavy race car..with a cage that is closer to you than it needs to be...and a street car...that you look silly climbing in and out of ..you can still drive it up to get ice cream or the ocasional street romp or car hang out without an interior..but once you start racing you wont want to romp on the street anymore..and you wont want the weight of the stuff in the car weight is everything in a race car...but the weight of a roll cage is over ridden buy the stiffness it gives the car.. most customers acually pick up speed after insalling a cage..be careful the first time out after installing a cage ..that you dont over correct ..the car is going to be much more responsive...

 

if you sent the car on a transporter but "forgot" to give the driver the deposit ..send it when you say you are going to for the amount you agreed to...

 

keep his attitude right..buy doing your part..and give him the opportunity and the funds to do the best job that can be done..

 

i would hope you would at least give me consideration..and an opportunity to bid the job..but if you do for whatever reason .watch out for these things..they are all out there..

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racecarbuilders

thanks guys..i do really try..to make them as nice as they can be..

 

yes it is vincent.. i got started on it monday..i had some stuff to finish before i could get to it..i should be finishing it up tomarrow..he didnt say what class he was running...

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racecarbuilders

pics of a boxster i just finished..

 

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for those who may want tig welded molly ..i can do that as well tig welds are beautiful.. this is in a 05 mustang ..i did last week..

 

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