2005 Rules - AIX tires DOT or Open (slicks)

[Grizlbits]

Okay, I have some real data on the RA1's that surprised the hell out of me and a lot of other people this weekend (right Gene?).

 

This spring I ran at Putman park on used S03 Hoosiers. I ran a 1:17.5 in qualifying. I then ran used hoosier S04's & ran a 1:15.5 (all 305 Front, 335 Rear)

 

This weekend, I ran at Putman and ran a 1:15.3 on used S04 Hoosiers for the first race (305 F, 335 R). Then I put on Used (4 heat cycled) shaved, TOYO RA1's (275 F, 335 R), ran a 1:15.3 in race two. I played with pressures a bit, went out and ran a 1:14.1 in race 3, WITH ONE INCH SMALLER FRONT TIRES!!!!!! So, all the CRAP I have been told on how fast the Hoosiers are, how slow the TOYO's are, is a bunch of BS. The other nice thing about the TOYO's is that they stayed dead even the entire race. They don't overcook like Hoosiers or Kuhmo's (Right Gene ). So are Hoosiers able to run faster - Maybe, in their 2nd heat cycle, for two laps, only until overcooked. I would really liked to have had the 305 Toyo's in the front, I did have a push in some corners with the smaller tires (275-35-18's), but they were not available at the time. I think I could have easily been in the mid 1:13's at Putnam with 305 fronts. The tire wear was awesome, except the front left due to the push I was experiencing, but with 305's I'd expect that to go away.

 

So my conclusion is that anyone who actually runs a LOT of races is that you will spend 1/4 the amount for your tires budget if you run RA1's. The Slicks idea is cool, but the cost will get out of control to stay competative. In my opinion, THE TOYO RA1 IS THE ONLY TIRES TO CONSIDER FOR AIX!

[racercosmo]

Chris, I agree that if there is a spec tire for AIX, then Toyo RA-1s are the only option. I disagree that there should be a spec tire in AIX for reasons I have already mentioned.

[RichardC]

Chris,

 

If only you had Toyo decals on your car you could have claimed contingency money.

 

Richard.

[tnmustcobra]

Chris,

Are the 305 Toyo's a 30 or 35 series tire? I would use the Toyo's if they were available in 305/30 X 18 (would probably go 35 series if all that is available). If a Toyo tire was used for the spec tire...would it be limited to a certain size??? I would vote yes if the tire required was a 305/30X 18 as this is the tire I currently use for my 11" wide rims (all 4 corners). If we were looking at another size rim and/or tire I would vote no. I have heard that the Toyo tires are more economical to run compared to Hoosiers. Could Toyo be the spec tire , but not hold the class to a certain size??? I know some of the AIX cars use 17 inch rims and some use 18 inch rims, like you and I do, so to be fair and not require purchasing new rims or make changes to suspension/brakes, if Toyo were the supplier that would be fine with me. Just don't want to be bound to a certain tire size. I think Toyo would invite AIX cars as the AI cars are already using the Toyo as a spec tire. Oh, I have looked at the charts and a 335 wide tire is recommended to be mounted on rims between 11-1/2 " to 13". Does the 335 make good contact on the pavement and wear good with the 11 " rims???

 

David Morrison

#9 Kenny Brown Equipped 1988 Mustang

NASA Southeast Region

[Guest]

Chris,

Are the 305 Toyo's a 30 or 35 series tire? I would use the Toyo's if they were available in 305/30 X 18 (would probably go 35 series if all that is available). If a Toyo tire was used for the spec tire...would it be limited to a certain size??? I would vote yes if the tire required was a 305/30X 18 as this is the tire I currently use for my 11" wide rims (all 4 corners). If we were looking at another size rim and/or tire I would vote no. I have heard that the Toyo tires are more economical to run compared to Hoosiers. Could Toyo be the spec tire , but not hold the class to a certain size??? I know some of the AIX cars use 17 inch rims and some use 18 inch rims, like you and I do, so to be fair and not require purchasing new rims or make changes to suspension/brakes, if Toyo were the supplier that would be fine with me. Just don't want to be bound to a certain tire size. I think Toyo would invite AIX cars as the AI cars are already using the Toyo as a spec tire. Oh, I have looked at the charts and a 335 wide tire is recommended to be mounted on rims between 11-1/2 " to 13". Does the 335 make good contact on the pavement and wear good with the 11 " rims???

 

David Morrison

#9 Kenny Brown Equipped 1988 Mustang

NASA Southeast Region

 

Being an AI competitor i'll toss my thoughts in. If AIX were to limit the tire/rim size to a maximum but still require that all competitors run the Toyo's what would be the harm. You could still have your pick of size and diameter.

 

Bringing AI/X into the Toyo contingency deal could potentially improve the bargaining power of AI/X as a class in hopes of better contingency help, a larger % discount based on purchase volume, and exposure for Toyo.

 

Having just seen Griz run a 1:14.xx at putnam on Toyos I say go for it!

[tom97ss]

Chris,

Are the 305 Toyo's a 30 or 35 series tire? I would use the Toyo's if they were available in 305/30 X 18 (would probably go 35 series if all that is available). If a Toyo tire was used for the spec tire...would it be limited to a certain size??? I would vote yes if the tire required was a 305/30X 18 as this is the tire I currently use for my 11" wide rims (all 4 corners). If we were looking at another size rim and/or tire I would vote no. I have heard that the Toyo tires are more economical to run compared to Hoosiers. Could Toyo be the spec tire , but not hold the class to a certain size??? I know some of the AIX cars use 17 inch rims and some use 18 inch rims, like you and I do, so to be fair and not require purchasing new rims or make changes to suspension/brakes, if Toyo were the supplier that would be fine with me. Just don't want to be bound to a certain tire size. I think Toyo would invite AIX cars as the AI cars are already using the Toyo as a spec tire. Oh, I have looked at the charts and a 335 wide tire is recommended to be mounted on rims between 11-1/2 " to 13". Does the 335 make good contact on the pavement and wear good with the 11 " rims???

 

David Morrison

#9 Kenny Brown Equipped 1988 Mustang

NASA Southeast Region

 

Being an AI competitor i'll toss my thoughts in. If AIX were to limit the tire/rim size to a maximum but still require that all competitors run the Toyo's what would be the harm. You could still have your pick of size and diameter.

 

Bringing AI/X into the Toyo contingency deal could potentially improve the bargaining power of AI/X as a class in hopes of better contingency help, a larger % discount based on purchase volume, and exposure for Toyo.

 

Having just seen Griz run a 1:14.xx at putnam on Toyos I say go for it!

 

Being a Future AIX competetor i would agree. Utilizing any size Toyo in AIX. This would help mitigate any cost with TOYO as a spec Cotingency sponser for "AMERICAN IRON" , This would also help, to some degree, of bring the field closer to together. I also think this would also help increase our exposure... have you seen the Speed GT Toyo Comercials?

 

Tom

[Jeff F]

The downside to having Toyos as the spec tire in AIX is that you may lose entries from people who run other series, and come to NASA races on ocassion. They aren't going to buy different tires just to run AIX.

 

I don't really see the point in making the Toyo the spec tire. Chris seems to think that the Toyo is the fastest tire out there, superior to the Hoosiers he was running, yet it also wears well. Why not just leave the DOT tire rule in place as it is? Chris can run the Toyo's and if someone else wants to run something else, they are free to do so but won't have an advantage.

[Grizlbits]

Chris seems to think that the Toyo is the fastest tire out there, superior to the Hoosiers he was running, yet it also wears well. Why not just leave the DOT tire rule in place as it is?

 

I think the hoosiers could be a bit faster (.5 - 1.0 seconds MAX) if new, which would cause everyone not running them a disadvantage if you didn't have a NEW set of Hoosiers waiting in the wings. This is exactly what I am trying to avoid ($).

 

Does the 335 make good contact on the pavement and wear good with the 11 " rims???

 

Yes, they worked fine on my 11" rims, I have been running 335 Hoosiers on the 11" all year with no issues. The 305 is on their Website, I am not sure if it is 30 or 35 series. It doesn't matter anyway the difference is minimal in height. The 335 is the largest you can get anyway, so the size requirement is a moot point.

 

I disagree that there should be a spec tire in AIX for reasons I have already mentioned.

 

I understand your concern, but for anyone serious about running an entire season, it will pay for the rims 3 times over by my calculations - assuming you sell the 17" rims.

 

If only you had Toyo decals on your car you could have claimed contingency money.

 

The contingency was dropped for AIX a year or two ago, and I think you need 6 people in the class, we only had 4,3,2 as the weekend progressed.

 

They aren't going to buy different tires just to run AIX.

 

If they aren't that serious to run a season with Toyos, let them run an Unrestricted or exhibition class. They will still pay WAY more for tires in a year, and they can run the Toyos in any DOT required class and not loose that much speed -maybe 1/2 - 1 second per lap, max.

[RichardC]

The contingency was dropped for AIX a year or two ago, and I think you need 6 people in the class, we only had 4,3,2 as the weekend progressed.

 

 

Chris,

 

All NASA race series are eligible for Toyo contingency even if the RA1 is not the spec tire. You are correct there is a limit on starters but Toyo pays out a small amount for first place even with only 2 starters, you would still be eligble for $35 (Toyo dollars) I believe.

 

Check out the contingency program, it all helps with costs.

 

Richard.

[swhiteh3]

I know I've said it before, but I'm all for a spec tire in AIX. I think the Toyos will really serve to reduce costs, since they don't drop off from heat cycle to heat cycle, and therefore there won't be any big advantage for the wealthy among us to constantly have new tires.

 

Also, it may just make the race a little safer. I've never driven Toyos on my car for a good A/B comparison, but based on Griz's comments (thanks for posting that info Chris!) I think the more consistent tire might just make things a little more predictable for all of us.

 

I say - let's do it!

 

Oh, and cars not shod in Toyos could still run with us, but just not for points or for an official finishing position.

[PAI Racing]

Better yet, the guys who don't want to run on Toyos could run for points and position in Super Unlimited or SCCA Super Production or ITE. Or, if not running for position is appealing to them, they could just run in HPDE. Or, now wait this is a hot one, guys who want to run on spec tires, could run in AI which is already a spec tire class.

[tom97ss]

The downside to having Toyos as the spec tire in AIX is that you may lose entries from people who run other series, and come to NASA races on ocassion. They aren't going to buy different tires just to run AIX.

 

We need to dedicate on this series an not worry about others if we want this series to be succesful.

 

I know I've said it before, but I'm all for a spec tire in AIX. I think the Toyos will really serve to reduce costs, since they don't drop off from heat cycle to heat cycle, and therefore there won't be any big advantage for the wealthy among us to constantly have new tires.

 

Also, it may just make the race a little safer. I've never driven Toyos on my car for a good A/B comparison, but based on Griz's comments (thanks for posting that info Chris!) I think the more consistent tire might just make things a little more predictable for all of us.

 

I say - let's do it!

 

Oh, and cars not shod in Toyos could still run with us, but just not for points or for an official finishing position.

 

Defintily agree

 

Better yet, the guys who don't want to run on Toyos could run for points and position in Super Unlimited or SCCA Super Production or ITE. Or, if not running for position is appealing to them, they could just run in HPDE. Or, now wait this is a hot one, guys who want to run on spec tires, could run in AI which is already a spec tire class.

 

Agreed. Especialy if the thought of slicks introduced, i thought that was what SU or SP was for.

[kurtborton]

My viewpoint is that AIX cars should be able to keep up with VVCX cars....without slicks that's just not going to happen. You're allowed to run a serisouly prepared car, so why not let slicks in? If cost is a concern then you're probably not ready to compete in AIX anyhow....I thought AIX was a "the sky's the limit" class? There's plenty of other low cost alternatives.

Some people are comparing AIX lap times to World Challenge lap times...there's a lot of freedom in the AIX rules that most people aren't taking advantage of yet. I feel as the AIX cars become better sorted the difference in lap times will be minimal. If you have AIX cars running lap times similar to WC cars I think more people would want to come watch the races, which is good for everyone.

[racercosmo]

I don't agree with slicks, but I still don't think AIX should go to a spec tire. Let''s keep the rule as it is.

[Grizlbits]

If you have AIX cars running lap times similar to WC cars I think more people would want to come watch the races, which is good for everyone.

 

I disagree. Saturday was the first race anyone really followed in AIX in Ohio/Indiana. Why? Because Gene & I were bumper to bumper for 13 laps. I think the Spec tire would promote more close racing. Close racing is why people watch not fast lap times. Look at the Miata's, they are a hoot to watch and they aren't going fast at all.

 

The slicks would be costing competative teams $1700 per weekend in tires alone for new ones. Used one can be had for cheaper, but they may not last an entire weekend - especially 4 races. That is why Norm in the Porsche did not race on Sunday, he used up all his tires. I'll admit, the slicks are cool, but they are good for 6 - 8 heat cycles from what most say, were the Toyos can go 20 or more.

[onralz]

If you have AIX cars running lap times similar to WC cars I think more people would want to come watch the races, which is good for everyone.

 

I disagree. Saturday was the first race anyone really followed in AIX in Ohio/Indiana. Why? Because Gene & I were bumper to bumper for 13 laps. I think the Spec tire would promote more close racing. Close racing is why people watch not fast lap times. Look at the Miata's, they are a hoot to watch and they aren't going fast at all.

 

 

I'm not for a spec tire in AI/X, but I'm also not a competitor. Regardless I agree that speed isn't completely what people come to watch. Drag racing is an example of why that isn't true. Pro stock is always close but I never watch it. Top fuel is almost never close, but I love it. We watch spec Miata because we like to see them hit each other.

The problem with the Toyo's is the size limiting factor. I have also found that the Toyo's aren't that much slower than the Hoosiers. I'm about a second off at Blackhawk farms with the Toyo's on the car and that is a very tight and twisty track.

Chris you just went faster because you had some inspiration for once.

[tom97ss]

My viewpoint is that AIX cars should be able to keep up with VVCX cars....without slicks that's just not going to happen. You're allowed to run a serisouly prepared car, so why not let slicks in? If cost is a concern then you're probably not ready to compete in AIX anyhow....I thought AIX was a "the sky's the limit" class? There's plenty of other low cost alternatives.

Some people are comparing AIX lap times to World Challenge lap times...there's a lot of freedom in the AIX rules that most people aren't taking advantage of yet. I feel as the AIX cars become better sorted the difference in lap times will be minimal. If you have AIX cars running lap times similar to WC cars I think more people would want to come watch the races, which is good for everyone.

 

nothing personal...... but if you wan to run slicks then run in SP or SU it would follow more of what you are trying to accomplish.

 

I don't compare the WC times to ours, sure its cool but the reality is its like comparing Indy or Champ cars to F1 cars. Kinda the same but different

 

People want to watch close racing, thats why F1 is not popular in the states and Nascar is.

[kurtborton]

Maybe in your region the cars aren't that smiliar...but our car is basically a Trans-Am car with smaller wheels, DOT tires and a bit more weight (that part could be taken care of). IS there really nobody else that sees how fast these cars can be? We're still just at the tip of the iceberg.