ABS poll

[firehawkclone]

To keep ABS in AI

 

Just a simple yes or no! We can start another tread to talk about it.

 

My vote is NO, though i am faster with ABS with only 3 weekends w/o abs.

[Holster Maker]

yes..........leave the rules alone.

[Grizlbits]

I vote to remove ABS altogether (as a racer). But we will need to propose this - or any change, for the 2010 rules (as someone in the rules group). Unless JWL decides to go back on his word....

[D Algozine]

I vote to remove ABS altogether (as a racer). But we will need to propose this - or any change, for the 2010 rules (as someone in the rules group). Unless JWL decides to go back on his word....

 

 

I'm a NO for ABS.

Perhaps the decision can be made now, but make it a 2010 rule change. Gives everyone more then a year to comply.

 

Holster Maker, change is good, change is your friend (just poking fun)

[Mystic_Cobra]

There's nothing wrong with the current rule that allows the use of a stock OEM unmodified ABS system. I say keep it the same.

[swhiteh3]

I'd vote NO to ABS. Easy to understand, and easy to enforce.

 

It's just traction control in reverse, and we should make every effort to enforce traction control rules as well.

 

If this is a series where the driver makes a difference, then let the driver make the difference.

 

Scott

[King Matt]

There's nothing wrong with the current rule that allows the use of a stock OEM unmodified ABS system. I say keep it the same.

That would make sense if it was easy to verify, but since it isn't, either allow unlimited ABS mods or make it illegal. I'd vote No.

[74mach]

I vote no ABS.

[Ernesto Roco]

NO on ABS

[RodeoFlyer]

How would you police modern cars that come from the factory with ABS/TC? Not everyone is running pushrod motors with carburetors.

 

I find it ironic that the ABS have-nots are bitching when many of them are the guys with big money aero, sla's, big money brakes, etc. . Last I saw, Burnet still had STOCK '05 Mustang brakes on his car, very little aero, strut front suspension.....and the NATIONAL TITLE.

 

Rather than outlawing common equipment on modern cars, the rulemakers could eaily add a penalty for it, be it minimum weight, maximum tire width, etc. Instead, guys with tens of thousands of dollars and god knows how much development time in their cars are crying for a rule that isn't necessary.

 

If you want to run around with a bunch of '82 Camaro's and '86 mustangs forever there's already a class for that - it's called AMERICAN SEDAN.

[JWL]

Folks-

 

This is something we can talk about for 2010, but I'd like to stick to how we have done things for a while with comments and discussion in September/October, slightly early release of changes, and then final rules out by 10/31/08. Predictability and consistency are a beautiful thing, so let's hear opinions and we can bring it up again next Fall.

 

Thanks.

 

-JWL

[lelady]

Folks-

 

This is something we can talk about for 2010, but I'd like to stick to how we have done things for a while with comments and discussion in September/October, slightly early release of changes, and then final rules out by 10/31/08. Predictability and consistency are a beautiful thing, so let's hear opinions and we can bring it up again next Fall.

 

Thanks.

 

-JWL

 

I couldn't agree more......

[D Algozine]

How would you police modern cars that come from the factory with ABS/TC? Not everyone is running pushrod motors with carburetors.

 

I find it ironic that the ABS have-nots are bitching when many of them are the guys with big money aero, sla's, big money brakes, etc. . Last I saw, Burnet still had STOCK '05 Mustang brakes on his car, very little aero, strut front suspension.....and the NATIONAL TITLE.

 

Rather than outlawing common equipment on modern cars, the rulemakers could eaily add a penalty for it, be it minimum weight, maximum tire width, etc. Instead, guys with tens of thousands of dollars and god knows how much development time in their cars are crying for a rule that isn't necessary.

 

If you want to run around with a bunch of '82 Camaro's and '86 mustangs forever there's already a class for that - it's called AMERICAN SEDAN.

 

 

Who's bitching or crying, other then you? I see opinions given. You're the only one taking personal shots. Theres so much bull shit in your commets, I don't even understand your point.

[ST#97]

If this is a series where the driver makes a difference, then let the driver make the difference.

 

Scott

 

We aren't a spec series so saying it's a driver's series is pointless. Given the amount of money that is spent in AI to be a showcase for developed race cars, I think ABS is part of that development. Besides, why require us to spend money to take a step backwards when 95% of the cars in the series run or come factory WITH ABS.

 

Leave the rule alone and lets all drive on round tires. Honestly, looking at CMC as an example, there is a LOT of driver mistakes that result in body damage that ABS could have prevented. Please don't make me spend money to remove it only to spend more money when someone punts me off track during a lock up at apex.

 

Just my $0.02.

[Micks 41]

I vote no ABS.

 

Oh, .... Chris and Paul need to wear an eye patch and one arm tied to their side... yes that should even things up!

[D Algozine]

If this is a series where the driver makes a difference, then let the driver make the difference.

 

Scott

 

We aren't a spec series so saying it's a driver's series is pointless. Given the amount of money that is spent in AI to be a showcase for developed race cars, I think ABS is part of that development. Besides, why require us to spend money to take a step backwards when 95% of the cars in the series run or come factory WITH ABS.

 

Leave the rule alone and lets all drive on round tires. Honestly, looking at CMC as an example, there is a LOT of driver mistakes that result in body damage that ABS could have prevented. Please don't make me spend money to remove it only to spend more money when someone punts me off track during a lock up at apex.

 

Just my $0.02.

 

Disclaimer, I really don't think the stock ABS is an advantage, except in the rain. However, I still don't think it belongs in AI racing.

 

Now, with that said, Matt I don't follow you.

Every race series is a driver series, it's just a matter of how much.

 

I don't see how having a stock ABS showcases development of a race car. It was on the car when it was bought off the "showroom" floor. Plus, I assumed that you removed the AC, power windows and the stereo.

 

I'm pesonally only aware of a few that use ABS. How much can it cost to unbolt it and re-run a few brake lines. And it's not a step backwards. It's removing stock components to make a race car.

 

Regarding, the drivers mistakes that resulted in accidents that could have been prevented by ABS. That's silly. Driver errors create accidents, not a lack of ABS.

[ST#97]

 

I'm pesonally only aware of a few that use ABS.

Regarding, the drivers mistakes that resulted in accidents that could have been prevented by ABS. That's silly. Driver errors create accidents, not a lack of ABS.

 

 

Dave, to a point, yes, every series has drivers that shine over others so yeah, driver ability weighs in AI...but it isn't the ONLY factor like spec Pinata, spec ford racer or Formula Atlantic... or other "this parts list only" series. Then it is all driver and I would call those a "driver's series".

 

I consider ABS a safety net so I don't plow another competitor when I screw up and vice versa whether it be dry pavement, dirt/grass on track or yeah.... And RAIN!!

 

"Only a few" that use it? Every car in our region has it including the Fox bodies and body in white S197's. Most all are using the OEM ford systems for SN95's, I have the OEM SN99 system with no proportioning valve and rubber lines in the rear! LOL!

 

If abs is voted out, I leave AI. I don't have the budget to deal with squared off tires and considering how many non-race events I run in the rain, it's just not something I am going to part with as a safety net for me and my fellow drivers.

 

Is it a aid to help cover my hack driving abilities? You bet! I am used to having it and I drove our Lemons car that didn't have ABS and I locked the brakes all the time, it was embarrassing, it sucked and made avoiding a spinning car a near impossibility once the tires locked. I can count numerous times where ABS has helped me from Drilling a spinning car on track immediately in front of me in a panic stop situation. Had I not had ABS, the result would only have been lots of tire smoke and bent body panels.

 

Basically, if I wanted to drive a car with no ABS, I would go to....(choking)... CMC. As a favor to my fellow drivers, I vote to keep ABS in AI.

 

Is the fear that someone can show up and use a Race oriented ABS system and blow the doors off all you guys that CHOOSE not to use something that is allowed in the rules? If so, is it so hard to plug back in the OEM system on your car? Or is it that a tech inspector can't easily tell if my OEM system is unmodified? There are a lot more advantagous things that can be modified without knowing than the programming in my abs module...

 

Don't fear the ABS guys....it's good!

[Jeff F]

Is the fear that someone can show up and use a Race oriented ABS system and blow the doors off all you guys that CHOOSE not to use something that is allowed in the rules? If so, is it so hard to plug back in the OEM system on your car? Or is it that a tech inspector can't easily tell if my OEM system is unmodified? There are a lot more advantagous things that can be modified without knowing than the programming in my abs module...

How much of an advantage a modified ABS system is has no relevance to the discussion. The point is that the current rule simply cannot be enforced, which is bad for everyone. Let's say that I protest you at a race and say that your ABS system has been reprogrammed. How are the race officials going to resolve my protest?

 

I can tell you that a FR500S module is a significant, measurable improvement over a stock S197 module.

 

The only way to remedy the situation is to ban ABS altogether, or open it up to allow the systems to me modified.

[gbrown8439]

 

I'm pesonally only aware of a few that use ABS.

Regarding, the drivers mistakes that resulted in accidents that could have been prevented by ABS. That's silly. Driver errors create accidents, not a lack of ABS.

 

 

Dave, to a point, yes, every series has drivers that shine over others so yeah, driver ability weighs in AI...but it isn't the ONLY factor like spec Pinata, spec ford racer or Formula Atlantic... or other "this parts list only" series. Then it is all driver and I would call those a "driver's series".

 

I consider ABS a safety net so I don't plow another competitor when I screw up and vice versa whether it be dry pavement, dirt/grass on track or yeah.... And RAIN!!

 

"Only a few" that use it? Every car in our region has it including the Fox bodies and body in white S197's. Most all are using the OEM ford systems for SN95's, I have the OEM SN99 system with no proportioning valve and rubber lines in the rear! LOL!

 

If abs is voted out, I leave AI. I don't have the budget to deal with squared off tires and considering how many non-race events I run in the rain, it's just not something I am going to part with as a safety net for me and my fellow drivers.

 

Is it a aid to help cover my hack driving abilities? You bet! I am used to having it and I drove our Lemons car that didn't have ABS and I locked the brakes all the time, it was embarrassing, it sucked and made avoiding a spinning car a near impossibility once the tires locked. I can count numerous times where ABS has helped me from Drilling a spinning car on track immediately in front of me in a panic stop situation. Had I not had ABS, the result would only have been lots of tire smoke and bent body panels.

 

Basically, if I wanted to drive a car with no ABS, I would go to....(choking)... CMC. As a favor to my fellow drivers, I vote to keep ABS in AI.

 

Is the fear that someone can show up and use a Race oriented ABS system and blow the doors off all you guys that CHOOSE not to use something that is allowed in the rules? If so, is it so hard to plug back in the OEM system on your car? Or is it that a tech inspector can't easily tell if my OEM system is unmodified? There are a lot more advantagous things that can be modified without knowing than the programming in my abs module...

 

Don't fear the ABS guys....it's good!

 

 

I have raced and won in cars with and without ABS. The times I have raced an ABS car it has been a FR500C with the factory modified system. That system is phenomenal! Given equal cars, I will bet every time on the car with that ABS system. Just ask Mickey. The ONLY reason I was ever in front of him at last years Nationals was because I had no fear of locking up the brakes and blowing the corner. You may use your ABS to avoid flat spotting tires, I use it to brake at the absolute last minute EVERY time. It makes no mistakes!

Then think about the ability to stand on the pedal while still turning. How many times have you compromised your line to be able to brake in a strait line?

Personally, I don't care if it is allowed or not.

If it is allowed, you might as well make any system legal because that is the only rule you can enforce.

[ST#97]

I want to understand this for sure....you guys want to kill ABS because of one platform of which there are maybe 6 cars in all of AI...?

 

If you want to change the SN95 ABS system to be less invasive, try wrapping plastic around the tone rings or moving the sensor further away, same result might happen. I just understand why we need to start ripping GOOD parts off our cars because someone can't tell if an ABS unit hasn't been flashed.

 

Everything seems to be working just fine now...why overturn the apple cart because of one bad apple?!

[Jeff F]

I want to understand this for sure....you guys want to kill ABS because of one platform of which there are maybe 6 cars in all of AI...?

I haven't expressed an opinion either way. All I want is an enforceable rule, which is either no ABS, or completely open ABS. I made the same argument last year when I proposed making the FR ABS units legal, which was not approved.

 

I'm not sure why you think this is limited to S197's. You claim to be able to retune your SN95 system, and if I really wanted to I could get almost any ABS module reprogrammed. Plus, I could put a S197 ABS system on my Fox.

[Holster Maker]

I agree with Matt.

I ran in 04/05/06 w/ABS (much safer) and then this car w/out ABS in 07/08, a course it took a while to get use to it without and 3 new tires wasted, but I finally did. Then while my motor was down, waiting on the machinist I installed ABS.........my luck, now you want to take it away ($400+ wasted)!

Keep ABS and if better ABS is available, use it.

So what.............we're in the 21st century! Like they say........"change is good"

 

I don't even know if my ABS is going to work..........wait minute, I might not want ABS.......!

Change is bad, but not many know that!

I should be in Buttonwillow racing........and testing ABS!

 

Jeff, I didn't see your post.

I agree!

[Red Tornado]

I vote yes for abs.

 

Newer cars will come standard with it so why force increased costs.

 

I would also allow the open rule if it came standard in a car if produced in units of more than 25 or so. Allows mustang challenge cars and perhaps new camaro GS car to be detuned and run as well.

 

All about the more the merrier and getting some more modern cars in the series.

[swhiteh3]

Newer cars will come with superchargers - should they be legal?

Newer cars will come with semi-auto or paddle shift gearboxes. Should those be legal?

Newer cars will come with FAR more than legal AI horsepower. Should we increase the limit?

Newer cars will come with traction control and stability control. Should that be legal?

 

Of course, we've already changed the brake rules and wheel rules because of what new cars come with, so maybe we should just change the rules every year to be more and more open, to accomodate whatever this years models come with?

[ST#97]

Newer cars will come with superchargers - should they be legal? They are now.

Newer cars will come with semi-auto or paddle shift gearboxes. Should those be legal? Hmm..as long as it isn't a dog box...

 

Newer cars will come with FAR more than legal AI horsepower. Should we increase the limit? Won't have too as most weight more than 2 tons anyway.

Newer cars will come with traction control and stability control. Should that be legal? Again, already is if it came stock.

Of course, we've already changed the brake rules and wheel rules because of what new cars come with, so maybe we should just change the rules every year to be more and more open, to accomodate whatever this years models come with?

 

So do you really see someone buying a $40k Camaro and building an AI car? Do you really forsee someone bringing in a $100k factory race car? Do you foresee a Mustang with flappy paddle gear box or ANY American pony car for that matter? Forget the what if's and deal with what 95% of what is already on the track racing TODAY! Is that too much to ask...?

 

Scott, I do respect you and your input but let's be realistic of what this series is.