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Proposed Rule Change - 911 GT3 Cup Car Dyno Requirement


ianacole

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Most of these guys run with Nasa for practice... not for points... as a GTS5 car..... I say let them run GTSU or just let them run within the GTS rules/cars... they don't want or care about points.... if they want points, they need dyno if they want to race with me.

 

Fc

 

Sorry, but letting them run in GTS5 for no points is crazy. There are racers with dynos running in that class who want points and contingency payouts. What happens if three GT3 cars show up with no dynos and take 1st, 2nd, and 3rd? Then the poor 914 guy, with the required dyno, who takes fourth place would get no contingency and 4th place points towards the season's point total.

 

I am sorry my statement is confusing..... I meant " as aGTS5 driver.. myself, I say let them

........... hope that clarified...

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Our cars ARE dyno'd at the Porsche Motorsports facility in California, OR in Germany, when the seals are put on. The seals are not allowed to be put on unless the power is within the spec. The specs are easily found if you are interested, google is your friend. There is no way to get more power on these sealed engines. Seems like a waste to get them dyno'd again unless you are wondering if the car is running well.

 

I do want to dyno my '73 as I think that will fit well into your GTS3 class. I would have run at your NJMP event but it was too dark and rainy for the terrible tow through metro NY area to get down there.

 

Hope to run with you guys next year in one of my 911s.

 

 

Regards, mike [email protected] '73 911RS Clone, '08 GT3 Supercup

 

my racing pages - http://www.analogman.com/911" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

I'm ok with that... get a copy of the german dyno, and a letter from the shop that supports your car... I would accept that. However I am not sure the car would make the GTS5 class hp/wt. Maybe someone who knows can speak.

My point is its just as easy to with a local dyno or run with GTS without points.

 

Fc

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Afternoon everyone.

 

First, don't shoot me - you'll see why in a sec.

 

I'm the guy who got the 996 cup cars classed in SCCA Gt2. Since 2002 I've probably run cup cars in more different sanctions then just about anyone. I'm certainly neither the fastest nor the most knowledgeable guy, but I do know what I'm talking about with regards to the Cup cars.

 

I also don't run GTS, but I'm thinking about doing so in my SCCA Gt2 968 (I sold a rock solid car to run a hand grenade)

 

First off, you need to differentiate between 996's and 997's. Whole different car. 997's have 20+ more HP, electric power steering, no abs but bigger brakes and a 6 speed, no lift shift SEQUENTIAL gearbox. Even bad drivers are faster in 997's than decent drivers in 996's.

 

996's make different HP depending on the year. started in 98 at 370 flywheel, and worked it's way up to 405 or so by 04/05. They all have 6 speeds, and all have ABS. The early cars had a different gearbox than the later cars, but you can do similar ratios for all.

 

996's and 997's do not belong in the same class, unless it's an unlimited run what ya brung class.

 

Then you have the Grand am mods, which can be significant. I won't even begin to list them, cause i don't know them all. Suffice to say that they can make a 996 or 997 faster, but not by a huge gap.

 

Dyno the cars.

 

Seals are meaningless on 996's. You can cheat with cams and programming, get it sealed, and then put in a "correct" program to work with the cams. Porsche motorsports does not open up motors sent to them to seal (unless they build them). all they do is dyno them with your computer, and if it is in range, seal it.) When 996's were running in IMSA cup, there was a hard core seal program. Now that they don't every tom, dick and harry is rebuilding them.

 

If you KNOW the car is 100% stock (no big valves, ported intake and/or head, cams), then the computer program is meaningless. You will not find more HP than the latest factory map in a stock motor. The cars stop making power about 7400 rpm. You can doctor a map and spin them higher, and all you are doing is making noise.

 

To make more HP, you need to change some combination of: valves, porting, intake porting, cams, etc.

 

So, dyno them. I wish SCCA did it.

 

As for GT5, can GT5 cars run slicks? if they can't, That is probably one reason why you don't see more cup cars.

 

Have fun, and if I can find where a tube chassis 968 fits, I might see some of you out there, especially at Road America.

 

Scott

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Scott,

 

Thanks for your input. The differences that you sited between models and even years further encourages the continuation of the dyno requirement, even for sealed motors. While I for one would be able to tell the difference between a 996 and a 997, I couldn't tell the difference between years, or if someone took an engine from a later model and stuffed it in an earlier model - not changing the sealing of the motor.

 

Also, any GTS car can run slicks, it just changes the weight/HP ratio for classing.

 

Ian

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Afternoon everyone.

 

First, don't shoot me - you'll see why in a sec.

 

I'm the guy who got the 996 cup cars classed in SCCA Gt2. Since 2002 I've probably run cup cars in more different sanctions then just about anyone. I'm certainly neither the fastest nor the most knowledgeable guy, but I do know what I'm talking about with regards to the Cup cars.

 

I also don't run GTS, but I'm thinking about doing so in my SCCA Gt2 968 (I sold a rock solid car to run a hand grenade)

 

First off, you need to differentiate between 996's and 997's. Whole different car. 997's have 20+ more HP, electric power steering, no abs but bigger brakes and a 6 speed, no lift shift SEQUENTIAL gearbox. Even bad drivers are faster in 997's than decent drivers in 996's.

 

996's make different HP depending on the year. started in 98 at 370 flywheel, and worked it's way up to 405 or so by 04/05. They all have 6 speeds, and all have ABS. The early cars had a different gearbox than the later cars, but you can do similar ratios for all.

 

996's and 997's do not belong in the same class, unless it's an unlimited run what ya brung class.

 

Then you have the Grand am mods, which can be significant. I won't even begin to list them, cause i don't know them all. Suffice to say that they can make a 996 or 997 faster, but not by a huge gap.

 

Dyno the cars.

 

Seals are meaningless on 996's. You can cheat with cams and programming, get it sealed, and then put in a "correct" program to work with the cams. Porsche motorsports does not open up motors sent to them to seal (unless they build them). all they do is dyno them with your computer, and if it is in range, seal it.) When 996's were running in IMSA cup, there was a hard core seal program. Now that they don't every tom, dick and harry is rebuilding them.

 

If you KNOW the car is 100% stock (no big valves, ported intake and/or head, cams), then the computer program is meaningless. You will not find more HP than the latest factory map in a stock motor. The cars stop making power about 7400 rpm. You can doctor a map and spin them higher, and all you are doing is making noise.

 

To make more HP, you need to change some combination of: valves, porting, intake porting, cams, etc.

 

So, dyno them. I wish SCCA did it.

 

As for GT5, can GT5 cars run slicks? if they can't, That is probably one reason why you don't see more cup cars.

 

Have fun, and if I can find where a tube chassis 968 fits, I might see some of you out there, especially at Road America.

 

Scott

 

I agree with ya scott.... I run against those guys and every car is different....dyno them all... but if they want to come to run with us for fun... let um , no points though..

 

Fc

Thanks for the imput

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I've been racing a 03' 996 cup for 4 years and agree with AnalogMike about the differences. As the older cup are being rebuilt by various builders, the need for the dyno becomes more apparent. Dynoing the newer 997 Cup with their Porsche Motorsports seal intact is probably less relevant, but we're seeing more and more variations on the older Cups in what used to be a spec class. Most of the Cups, earlier and later have almost similar power bands. The latest 7-Cups pull me ever-so-slightly, but their real power in the corners. I think all Cup drivers can easily tell if someone isn't legal. I know I could when I ran across an 02' Cup that was easily beating all the 6 & 7 cups down the straights. Dyno the older cars, reserve the right to dyno the newer Cups if someone protests....

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Stamper,

 

Thank you for the education there, very helpful.

 

Guys, we don't have the manpower/time to police the possible changes that MIGHT be done to a sealed engine/CPU at the track. Even know where all the seals ARE? Any GTS folks want to step up and guarantee they know all the options, all the tricks, and anything that might be snuck in to change the HP? I'm a hard-core pcar guy and spend a lot of time around factory mechanics and I wouldn't. Would you put your $ behind it?

 

2. Every car gets dyno'd according to our charter. No exceptions.

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I'm not against dynoing the cup cars, if that's what the majority wants (and they sure seem to!). But I don't think you will find a sealed engine that's out of spec as Scott imlpied. Yes I have seen cheater engines, there was one 996 GT3 cup at NJMP that I could not pass in my 997 gup even when I came out of the last turn faster.

 

A GT3 cup is about 400HP and 2700 lbs with driver = 6.85 which should be very competitive in GTS5.

My 997 cup is the latest version so 420hp and I am skinny so I might need some ballast.

 

I turned just under 2 minutes at the Glen, about 56 flat at LRP, 1:30 at Ohio in my old 996 cup and my 997 cup is about a second faster. I have the PCA track record at NJMP lightining with a 1:06 in the 997 cup and ran 1:27 this year at Atlanta. Are those times competitive in GTS5?

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As for GT5, can GT5 cars run slicks? if they can't, That is probably one reason why you don't see more cup cars.

 

Have fun, and if I can find where a tube chassis 968 fits, I might see some of you out there, especially at Road America.

 

Scott

 

Yes, they can run slicks in GTS 5 if the weight/rwhp ratio is between 6.5 and 8.99. That's part of the beauty of the simple rule set: Every german marque has a place to run in GTS. All it takes is a dyno, a set of scales, and the CCR req'd safety equipment. Even hand grenade 968's.

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I turned just under 2 minutes at the Glen, about 56 flat at LRP, 1:30 at Ohio in my old 996 cup and my 997 cup is about a second faster. I have the PCA track record at NJMP lightining with a 1:06 in the 997 cup and ran 1:27 this year at Atlanta. Are those times competitive in GTS5?

 

Ummm... No... You'll be really slow. You should stay home. Kidding! 1:30 at Mid-O is smoking. Faster cars during Nationals ran 1:32 (though track conditions weren't optimal).

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