tfro Posted November 13, 2008 Posted November 13, 2008 With all these threads about rule change proposals, I was just curious what the official process is for a rule change? Who makes the final call, when are rule changes to be discussed, is there a proposal period? Sorry if this info is somewhere already, I took a quick look and couldn't find anything. -Thomas Quote
Lemming Posted November 13, 2008 Posted November 13, 2008 Agreed. With the NASA-forced transition of leadership in the GTS Challenge Series this needs to be dealt with now so that we racers can decide if we are going to stay or choose to move somewhere else. Quote
Fred Crawford Posted November 13, 2008 Posted November 13, 2008 I would like to know also... " Man eating popcorn here " Fc Quote
Mike Simard Posted November 13, 2008 Posted November 13, 2008 That sounds like dangerous popcorn Fred Quote
Fred Crawford Posted November 13, 2008 Posted November 13, 2008 That sounds like dangerous popcorn Fred Just trying to be the man John is....... I am to stupid to use all those smilely things.... FC Quote
JSG1901 Posted November 13, 2008 Posted November 13, 2008 I'm sure this is too simple to pass, but I'll suggest it anyway: We have a great series. A lot of the reason it is great is there are clear, simple rules that are easy to understand, follow and verify. Everybody knows what they are and how they are verified. Really, it's quite elegant in its simplicity. I propose that for 2009 we adopt IN WHOLE, with NO CHANGES, the 2008 rules. The benefits: 1. They are already written, known, and understood. 2. All existing GTS cars and, presumably, all being built today are aimed at those rules. 3. It can be settled TODAY. 4. It gives NASA a year to figure out--with our help--a fair system for modifying the rules, if that becomes necessary, in future years. I'm sure we can find issues to argue about for the next year if we like, but I would rather--for my own self and for the benefit of the series--know what the deal is. Quote
Jim Child Posted November 13, 2008 Posted November 13, 2008 I'm sure this is too simple to pass, but I'll suggest it anyway: We have a great series. A lot of the reason it is great is there are clear, simple rules that are easy to understand, follow and verify. Everybody knows what they are and how they are verified. Really, it's quite elegant in its simplicity. I propose that for 2009 we adopt IN WHOLE, with NO CHANGES, the 2008 rules. The benefits: 1. They are already written, known, and understood. 2. All existing GTS cars and, presumably, all being built today are aimed at those rules. 3. It can be settled TODAY. 4. It gives NASA a year to figure out--with our help--a fair system for modifying the rules, if that becomes necessary, in future years. I'm sure we can find issues to argue about for the next year if we like, but I would rather--for my own self and for the benefit of the series--know what the deal is. That's exactly what I've been thinking. If ever there was a time when we needed stability in the rules this is it. Thanks for suggesting it Scott. Quote
Brad Waite Posted November 13, 2008 Posted November 13, 2008 +1 on adopting the 2008 rules. Brad Quote
mikew968 Posted November 13, 2008 Posted November 13, 2008 I also agree on a no rule changes for 2009 as well. Well said Scott!! Mike Quote
jakermc Posted November 13, 2008 Posted November 13, 2008 Count me in the 'no changes from 2008' camp Quote
JWL Posted November 13, 2008 Posted November 13, 2008 Guys- Ultimate responsibility and authority for any ruleset in NASA rests with Jerry Kunzman, so you all should feel to ring him whenever you have a concern. However, before things get to Jerry's level, rules are normally handled by one director or groups of directors who are tasked with getting input from the racers and then coming up with any changes that are both warranted and necessary. With GTS, you now have a group of regional GTS Directors and a GTS National Director working with me to jointly decide on what the 2009 rules should look like. The idea with asking for opinions and requested changes was to see if there were any topics that needed addressing and were of concern to a majority of the GTS constituency. Again, there are no agendas for change from the National office and quite frankly the concept of no change from 2008 is pretty darn appealing. However, PLEASE feel free to let the Directors know what you think and what you would like to see. We will keep the comment period open for a week from today (11/20) with a goal to have a published stable ruleset out on the wire by 11/26 or earlier so that people can either continue their builds or make changes that they deem necessary. We hope you stick around and we'll do our best to try and make as many folks as happy as possible. Thanks and enjoy the popcorn. -JWL Quote
ianacole Posted November 13, 2008 Posted November 13, 2008 I'm sure this is too simple to pass, but I'll suggest it anyway: We have a great series. A lot of the reason it is great is there are clear, simple rules that are easy to understand, follow and verify. Everybody knows what they are and how they are verified. Really, it's quite elegant in its simplicity. I propose that for 2009 we adopt IN WHOLE, with NO CHANGES, the 2008 rules. The benefits: 1. They are already written, known, and understood. 2. All existing GTS cars and, presumably, all being built today are aimed at those rules. 3. It can be settled TODAY. 4. It gives NASA a year to figure out--with our help--a fair system for modifying the rules, if that becomes necessary, in future years. I'm sure we can find issues to argue about for the next year if we like, but I would rather--for my own self and for the benefit of the series--know what the deal is. John beat me too my post ... nonetheless ... I am very happy with this position, it will make the job of publishing the rules that much easier. I wanted to put these rule request out to the racers early so we could have the discussions and then get on with the off season without worrying what the rules would look like for next year. It looks like most of the discussion have gone full circle to deny the proposed rule and keep the rules as simple and static as possible. I like this, this is what drew me to this series in the first place, and I'm happy to hear that the large community of racers feel the same. I would like to add one thing to the rules though, and it's a result of this discussion. I think the rules should include the process of change, to include when rule changes are open for discussion (1st 3 weeks in November?), what the process for submittal of rule change request is and when they need to be submitted, when the Regional Directors have to provide their final opinions on proposed rules (sometime during the 1st week of December?), and when final rules for upcoming season are published (3rd week of December?). I think that clarifying the rule change process will eliminate a lot of confusion and provide everyone the opportunity to present their opinions. I also want to assure the GTS Racers that we are not here to change GTS. All the rule change proposal threads have garnered a great amount of debate and have actually gone to reaffirm the desire to maintain the simplicity of the rule set. For the most part, and I say this with bated breath, what the racers want in terms of rules is what the racers will get. There are always going to be some exceptions to this (the 38.1 compliant H&R rule from last year is an example), but I will always work to keep anything of this nature to a minimum. In the end, it's the racers that make this series, and if the racers become disenfranchised, the series will die. To that end, open discussion of what will continue to make the racers happy in terms of rules (minus adding 800lbs to BMWs) is welcome and encouraged. Quote
Enzo Posted November 13, 2008 Posted November 13, 2008 I'm sure this is too simple to pass, but I'll suggest it anyway: We have a great series. A lot of the reason it is great is there are clear, simple rules that are easy to understand, follow and verify. Everybody knows what they are and how they are verified. Really, it's quite elegant in its simplicity. I propose that for 2009 we adopt IN WHOLE, with NO CHANGES, the 2008 rules. The benefits: 1. They are already written, known, and understood. 2. All existing GTS cars and, presumably, all being built today are aimed at those rules. 3. It can be settled TODAY. 4. It gives NASA a year to figure out--with our help--a fair system for modifying the rules, if that becomes necessary, in future years. I'm sure we can find issues to argue about for the next year if we like, but I would rather--for my own self and for the benefit of the series--know what the deal is. That's exactly what I've been thinking. If ever there was a time when we needed stability in the rules this is it. Thanks for suggesting it Scott. Hear! Hear! Make it so, NASA.... Quote
Brad Waite Posted November 13, 2008 Posted November 13, 2008 Thanks John and Ian. I like the suggestion on a rule for submitting rule change proposals. Great idea and it works well with other series. Brad Quote
scottbm3 Posted November 13, 2008 Posted November 13, 2008 I'm also in favor of no rule changes to the GTS rules for 2009. May I also suggest that NASA GTS send out bulk emails to all GTS racers and announce the discussion period, where its being discussed and when it ends. The forum is a good place to have these debates, but most racers don't frequent the forums on a regular basis, especially in the off season. As it stands now, there may be at tops a dozen(probably less) or so racers participating in something that effects many more. We want everyone to have their chance to contribute. Just an idea. -Scott B. Quote
JWL Posted November 13, 2008 Posted November 13, 2008 Scott- Not a bad idea and I'll see what we can do to make that happen. -JWL Quote
JSG1901 Posted November 14, 2008 Posted November 14, 2008 I'm also in favor of no rule changes to the GTS rules for 2009. May I also suggest that NASA GTS send out bulk emails to all GTS racers and announce the discussion period, where its being discussed and when it ends. The forum is a good place to have these debates, but most racers don't frequent the forums on a regular basis, especially in the off season. As it stands now, there may be at tops a dozen(probably less) or so racers participating in something that effects many more. We want everyone to have their chance to contribute. Just an idea. To build on this, let's have a discussion period and then a vote. The vote is not about whether whatever has been suggested will become a rule but rather about whether it will be considered for inclusion as a rule. In other words, there is a process. First, people suggest anything they want. I, for instance, think 1989 944 S2s should be allowed to run in GTS2 at 300lbs under weight. These suggestions can be sent privately to NASA at any time during the year. At some point, a discussion period opens on all of these suggestions. They are posted on the site as possible rules changes and we can have at them for some period. PLEASE don't make it too long. Then, we vote on whether they should seriously be considered for inclusion as a rule. Not made a rule, not yet, simply whether they warrant any continuing consideration. Yes or No votes decided by a simple majority. 50.0000001% wins. My -300lb proposal, sadly, would probably not make it past this point. Then, final discussions on the ones that make it through. Everybody gets ONE chance to comment on each. Make your best pitch. Then, the final vote. 75% required for a change. That's how I'd do it if I were King. Quote
dillehayd Posted November 14, 2008 Posted November 14, 2008 Scott- Not a bad idea and I'll see what we can do to make that happen. -JWL If you don't have the resources to do this already, I might be able to help you out. Email me if you like. Quote
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