Safety in TT

[xr4racer1]

I am getting very tired of reading about deaths and injuries in TT cars. I did not know any of the people who have been killed at NASA events over the years but with some safety requirements for TT hopefully the future events will be much safer. I can not understand how an organization that is so forward thinking regarding the safety of their racers by requiring a head and neck restraint, right side net, proper rollcages and soon newer and certified fuel cells can let TT cars run like they do. HPDE is one thing but in TT when the competitor is constantly looking for that one fast lap with potentially no safety equipment but an open faced helmet is utterly ridiculous. You can run a car in TT with 500 horsepower and stock brakes with a passenger without a proper racing seat, rollcage, right side net etc. Running a car on the track always has the potential to end badly but if you have the time, money and the ambition to run your car on the track you also have the same to do it safer. Hopefully Cale Kastanek's passing will in some way make the future safer for all of us to enjoy the sport we all love.

 

matt miller

 

 

matt miller

[Mystic_Cobra]

Matt-

You make a good point. Many of these cars are running race car speeds and some have no more safety equipment than an HPDE 1 car. Maybe a system like NHRA's speed (ET) based system is in order. It would be tough to do, but it's an option. Would it be top speed based (I don't think this is currently measured at any track) or lap time based?

I mentioned it in another thread, but requiring a HANS is likely going to require a minimum of 5-pt harnesses and a 4-pt bar. Once you do this, you've made most sedans (or any car with a back seat) a two-seater in most people's eyes. If this is your only car, this may be a deal breaker for many. You may say, tough titties, this is your life you're talking about. It's a big can a worms.

There was no TT in my region when I was moving through HDPE. By the time I got to HPDE 4, I had a 4-pt bar and 5-pt harnesses in my Mustang and I still had the back seat in it. It was my only car and I drove it every day. I'm glad there was no TT and I didn't have to make that decision. I probably would have run TT and probably shouldn't have.

I didn't buy my HANS until AFTER I crashed into the concrete wall in T1 at Summit. I was racing in American Iron. I was doing about 140 when I discovered I had NO brakes. I skipped right across the gravel trap and hit the tires/concrete at 120 mph+. The car was toast but I walked away (ok staggered). Some bumps and bruises and that's about it. I was lucky.

[pmcrespo]

+1. TT = 4 pt Roll bar + R3H/Hans + 5 pt Harness.

 

I started using my R3 Hybrid days before my ball joint broke and hit the wall at an angle going 80+. I am convinced it at the very least saved a few neck fractures/bad neck disks (for life), but ultimately believe it may have saved my life. IMHO, if such a requirement keeps "x" TT potential competitors out of every 10 from competing, but save at least one life in the process; it is worth it.

 

Perhaps a compromise is for NASA to offer TT competitors some marginal registration discounts for those using full safety systems in an effort to increase participation without forcing the issue overnight while slowly moving to make it a mandatory requirement over a few seasons. Maybe the insurance companies can offset some of the cost by reducing premiums given the added safety?

 

Just some thoughts, as ultimately the bottom line is that it very much hurts to lose a fellow competitor regardless of the circumstances.

Edited November 18, 2008 by Guest

[vpnwiz]

I would like to see them enact this for 2009. There's plenty of time between now and the start of next season to get the appropriate safety gear for TT.

[Mystic_Cobra]

I don't know if a registration discount will work for safety equipment. That might be a stretch. I haven't looked at the TT rules lately, but demerits for safety equipment? I think that should be changed.

[Grintch]

Anyone else notice that the people clamoring for more TT safety equipment AREN'T TT competitors?

 

TT has little point if the car has to meet full road race safety specs. Anyone who wants can add a roll bar, cage, harness, hans, etc. to their TT car.

 

Ever seen motorcycle racing or kart racing? Lots less protection than a TT car.

 

Maybe we need to eliminate unlimited passing for road race cars. Think how much safer that would make them!

[Lucid Moments]

Anyone else notice that the people clamoring for more TT safety equipment AREN'T TT competitors?

 

TT has little point if the car has to meet full road race safety specs. Anyone who wants can add a roll bar, cage, harness, hans, etc. to their TT car.

 

Ever seen motorcycle racing or kart racing? Lots less protection than a TT car.

 

Maybe we need to eliminate unlimited passing for road race cars. Think how much safer that would make them!

 

I noticed that myself. To me the whole point to TT is for people that want to compete, but lack the wherewithal to have a dedicated track car. Because the safety devices being advocated make a car very difficult (at best) to use as a daily driver.

[ninetyfourintegra]

re: racers posting about TT safety.

- The question to be asked of those racers posting is: How many of them are actively TT'ing as well?

 

I know Patrick does, as do I. We have also spoken about safety, particularly wearing the HANs, in TT. We both TT'd without our HANS' this year, even though we had the device sitting in the Tow-vehicle. In our case it wasn't a question of us not having a HANS (or the additional equipment required to wear it), it was a question of the rules requiring us to wear it.

 

I do know, however, that I will be wearing it at all times moving forward - I am quite certain Patrick will be as well.

 

Racers posting, to me, is seeing the other side of things. Its being on track with all of the safety equipment as well as without. I know that I am much more relaxed with all of my equipment on. I am aware that things go wrong on track, the concern is that we seem to be sticking our head in the sand thinking TT doesn't come with the same risk.

 

I am not sure what the solution is but sticking our head in the sand saying it isn't so, is not a solution.

[Mystic_Cobra]

I've not run TT, but I have considered it.

 

But please explain why you would leave a HANS in the trailer during a TT run?

[ninetyfourintegra]

For me, I am 6'2" and getting in my car without assistance is almost impossible with my HANS. Since it wasn't required, I didn't run it. It was also the first event weekend with it so it was even more cumbersome than it really is now that I am used to it (still can't get in the car alone but...

 

In any case, it won't be happening again.

 

Perhaps what is more concerning is that there aren't as many TT'ers concerned

[Izzy's Cages]

For me, I am 6'2" and getting in my car without assistance is almost impossible with my HANS. Since it wasn't required, I didn't run it. It was also the first event weekend with it so it was even more cumbersome than it really is now that I am used to it (still can't get in the car alone but...

 

In any case, it won't be happening again.

 

Perhaps what is more concerning is that there aren't as many TT'ers concerned

Slightly OT, but if getting IN with a HANS is difficult, how hard is getting OUT????

 

I think that if you start upping the cost to play, you're going to start eliminating the players. Believe me, I'm ALL for people getting rollbars and cages, but that's a big commitment that takes an every day car and makes it a dedicated track car. Might as well just step up to wheel to wheel.

 

I personally use my choice of HNR any time I go onto the track whether its a T&T, DE or a Club Race. I'd use it during the daily commute if I could

[ninetyfourintegra]

Slightly OT, but if getting IN with a HANS is difficult, how hard is getting OUT????

 

Actually really easy. The problem for me is getting my right shoulder belt on. With my RS head support and net I can't get my arm up there. Then I can't get my head turned around enough to see to get my top bar for my window net in the mount hole.

 

To get out... pull the steering wheel, pop the belts and roll my hips and I am out... The minimum time is 10 secs and I can do it repeatedly without issue. I won't lie though, going out the passenger side is much harder. I had to disconnect the HANS (I have quick release though), the RS window net and still get my noggin between the RS head support, bar/mirror and over the shifter... luckily I wasn't in need HAVE TO get out of the car when I to do this. Its on my list of things to address/practive this offseason.

[Lucid Moments]

My point though is that if you require that level of safety equipment then NASA will loose participants. To me that is a given. How many, and if it is a bad thing or not could be up for debate. My personal opinion is that you would loose a lot of the people that TT that are not also a racing.

 

If you have the safety equipment then certainly use it. I'm still in HPDE myself at the moment, but do have racing seats, 5 point harness and a partial cage. But to require that kind of safety equipment seems to me to be counter productive to NASA's goals.

[cosm3os]

I have no comment on whether it should be required, or not, but don't kid yourself--TT is different than HPDE because of the competition element involved. My attitude in TT was definitely different than it was in HPDE (and I was competitive in HPDE). Everyone has to make a personal choice based on their situation. Single college kid on a budget--take your chances. 35 yo guy with a wife and kid--get a rollbar, a proper seat, harnesses and a HANS.

[Trevor57]

Maybe knitting is more suited to some of you.

[vpnwiz]

Maybe knitting is more suited to some of you.

Oh, is that what you were doing in your car this year Trevor? I thought we were supposed to be setting the FTD!! j/k man...

 

Back on topic - for those of you concerned about losing TT participants, when there are more fatalities what do you think that is going to do for TT? It's not going to bring people to the sport, that's for sure.

 

...But to require that kind of safety equipment seems to me to be counter productive to NASA's goals.

 

NASA's number one goal should be participant safety. This is also reinforced at every event I have been in.

 

I fail to see how requiring basic safety equipment in a car trying to drive as fast as possible around a racetrack is a big stretch here. However, forecasting the demise of TT if this happens is a hell of a stretch.

 

Patrick

[Lucid Moments]

Back on topic - for those of you concerned about losing TT participants, when there are more fatalities what do you think that is going to do for TT? It's not going to bring people to the sport, that's for sure.

 

If they have to have equipment that makes the car unusable for anything but the track to participate that won't draw people either. Also, Am I missing something? How many deaths did NASA have in TT in 2008?

 

NASA's number one goal should be participant safety. This is also reinforced at every event I have been in.

 

NASA is a for profit organization. Their number one goal should be to make a profit. Safety certainly factors into that. If they run an unsafe event they are not going to be profitable.

 

 

I fail to see how requiring basic safety equipment in a car trying to drive as fast as possible around a racetrack is a big stretch here. However, forecasting the demise of TT if this happens is a hell of a stretch.

 

Patrick

 

I guess our difference is the definition of basic safety equipment. A good modern 3 point seat belt with an airbag is pretty safe. Not safe enough to race in I agree, but TT is not racing and that is the point.

[cosm3os]

We lost a TTer out east just a month ago or so. It may not be "racing", but it is competitive and competition raises the level. It would be wise for each driver to consider whether they need to raise the level of their safety equipment.

[vpnwiz]

If they have to have equipment that makes the car unusable for anything but the track to participate that won't draw people either. Also, Am I missing something? How many deaths did NASA have in TT in 2008?

TT- 1 death. HPDE- 1 death. Racing- 1 death (last August). How are those for odds? I can also bring up at least 5 incidents from short term memory where people and property were seriously damaged.

 

Having correct safety equipment does not mean a dedicated track car. There are bolt in harness bars that are removed for daily driving. Tons of Miatas out there with roll bars that are not dedicated to track use, too. That point isn't going to fly.

 

NASA's number one goal should be participant safety. This is also reinforced at every event I have been in.

NASA is a for profit organization. Their number one goal should be to make a profit. Safety certainly factors into that. If they run an unsafe event they are not going to be profitable.

There are lots of ways to not be profitable' date=' but don't beat around the bush on this one. You can and WILL be removed from an event for acting in an unsafe manner or having a car that is not safe. I know this because it's happened to me - and I got a refund. Safety comes first. Any regional director will tell you this is the rule. It has to be.

I fail to see how requiring basic safety equipment in a car trying to drive as fast as possible around a racetrack is a big stretch here. However, forecasting the demise of TT if this happens is a hell of a stretch.

I guess our difference is the definition of basic safety equipment. A good modern 3 point seat belt with an airbag is pretty safe. Not safe enough to race in I agree' date=' [b']but TT is not racing and that is the point.[/b]

OK, first... have you ever even been in a TT session?? It doesn't sound like it. TT is just like racing except for the crazy start and slightly more restrictive passing rules... especially the first few sessions of a weekend until the starting grid gets sorted out. Second, TT is a competition but has no different requirements for safety equipment than regular DE's. This is a problem. Safety standards for competition should be different than what a regular DE car needs. I agree they should be minimal - a 5 point harness and a HANS, unless the R3 or Hutchens ever certifies for 3 point belts - but TT needs basic competition safety requirements. TT is not a DE and should have safety requirements appropriate to the level of driving.

 

We make people go through training and have TT licenses to participate. Why not the safety equipment?

 

Patrick

[laze1]

Something UGLY to consider: "Attorneys & law suits"...

 

In most cases, if you show "intent" to be safe and somebody gets hurt or killed, you have a much better chance in a law suit. If you show "gross negilgence" meaning that you knew there was a clear and present danger to someone, and you did NOT take corrective action...you GET SCREWED! (remember the "Hot Coffee lawsuit")

 

So, if we don't do something now, and get sued: just loosing a few TT participants will pale in comparison to shutting down ALL TT.

 

I am NOT an attorney or any kinda legal expert..just giving one man's opinion...And I run TTB with a 6-point, race seat, HANS, etc in a street legal 350Z! So I do support safety rules for TT participants and cars...This ain't HPDE.

[Grintch]

Having correct safety equipment does not mean a dedicated track car. There are bolt in harness bars that are removed for daily driving. Tons of Miatas out there with roll bars that are not dedicated to track use, too. That point isn't going to fly.

 

Ummm, as EVERY Miata car that runs HPDE or TT must have a roll bar how does this apply? You cant compare a open Miata's safety with a hardtop car. Also, adding a roll bar to a 2 seat car has little impact to its street utility. Put one in your wifes 4 door and see how well it works on the street. In many areas, its illegal to use non DOT harnesses on the street. I'm 6'4", and have never seen an off the shelf harness bar that would allow me to fit in a car with a helmet (I need to rake the seat back too far).

 

Let's take a scientific look at the 3 fatal incidents, and see what, if anything, would have likely prevented them. Don't be like Congress and impose expensive legislation everytime something happens just to "do something". Are factory hardtops on convertable cars (wasn't a hardtop S2000 the car in the TT fatality?) equivalent in safety to a fixed roof car? Would tightening up on the TT passing restrictions make more sense than adding expensive & intrusive safety equipment? Remember its not all or nothing, consider roll bars instead of cages, Schroth street legal 4 point harnesses instead of 5/6/7 point race harnesses, unrated fire resistant or SFI-1 clothing rather than SFI-3 suits, etc.

 

I sometimes get the impression that road racers look at TT and HPDE folks and say, "hey, we're required to have this, why aren't you". Not realizing the safety equipment such as airbags they do have that race cars don't, and the whole no "guy in a red haze desperately trying to pass you" factor.

[vpnwiz]

I sometimes get the impression that road racers look at TT and HPDE folks and say, "hey, we're required to have this, why aren't you". Not realizing the safety equipment such as airbags they do have that race cars don't, and the whole no "guy in a red haze desperately trying to pass you" factor.

Bruce,

 

I run in TT, so I DO realize what goes on. It's not the other people as much as it is YOU (not you personally, you as a TT driver). You are out there trying to set the fastest lap. This means driving on the edge. Sometimes, driving on the edge bites you - hard. If you're gonna compete at this level, passing or not, you need to be safe.

 

HPDE participants don't drive like this so there is simply no comparison.

 

I have a Civic Si sedan too, and I want to run it in TT sometime. Before I do I'm going to get or make a harness bar for it, and buy another 5-point so I can wear my HANS when I run. But I'm not going to leave it in all the time because my wife and kids ride in the car sometimes too. It can easily be part of your pre-/post-race preparation to install and remove it.

 

And I sincerely hope you are not relying on your airbags on the track to save your ass. If you've got harnesses they should be disabled when you're out there anyway!

 

Patrick

[kbrew8991]

Personal Responsibility must be dead in this country....

 

It won't matter to me as my "new" TT car has full wtw safety (so I can also do PT) - but a knee jerk thing over an accident so severe its hard to argue that even minimum wtw specs would've mattered is a bit rash. Are we going to require the same stuff for HPDE4, 3, etc - Billy Bob in his shiny new ZR1 even in DE1 is at a helluvalot more risk of death that I am in my wimpy little TTF car. All it takes is a minor little brake failure... competition or not is a bit irrelevant there. And right now we've had 1 death per category. Should we really look at mandating safety upgrades for everyone if 1 death is the metric we want to use?

 

If you don't think we're safe enough, don't run with us... simple as that.

 

I'm sure Greenbaum & the powers that be are looking into it, especially since I know myself and another regional director or two have contacted him regarding looking into what makes sense for our series. We'll see what changes happen, this isn't something that we're going to be able to "settle" online, as its really opinion based.

 

(/thread)

[ninetyfourintegra]

My first experience with TT was, "woah, this is NOT HPDE". I went from DE straight to Racing and then decided to try my hand at TT.

 

Balls Deep for your best time is what TT is all about. Cut a tire, hit some oil, loose a brake line... to me its not the the open passing as much as it is the 'relative' speed and limit TT runs at vs HPDE. Not to mention you spend most of the time with your head on a swivel because TTU is out there lapping you once every 3 laps.

 

 

I would not have believed it until I did it.

[kbrew8991]

ok so the DE1 guy thats at 115mph at the apex of T12 @ Road Atlanta in his Corvette (even though its 80% of the cars capability) is safer than me doing 85mph at the same apex (even though its 100%) in terms of "how bad will this hurt if a wheel/tire/whatever breaks & I slam into that wall over there 10' away?" Really? Interesting opinion If we were discussing safety after a car-to-car contact incident I'd be willing to discuss the "traffic" factor. But we're not...

 

again, its all opinions anyway... just trying to illustrate my POV is all.