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Safety in TT


xr4racer1

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ok so the DE1 guy thats at 115mph at the apex of T12 @ Road Atlanta in his Corvette (even though its 80% of the cars capability) is safer than me doing 85mph at the same apex (even though its 100%) in terms of "how bad will this hurt if a wheel/tire/whatever breaks & I slam into that wall over there 10' away?"

That is an interesting scenario. In that specific case all you can do is hold on tight and wait for the pain.

 

In just about any other case (where a wall is more than 10' away...) I would throw out that it is much easier to catch a car when you are running at 80% and near impossible when it gets out of line at 100%. Thus regurgitating the difference between HPDE and TT yet again.

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and the experience level between the two is irrelevant in your opinion I take it? Car failure is car failure, you don't have brakes at 120+, loose a wheel in a high speed turn, have a catastrophic suspension failure, etc, there isn't much you can do anymore - so back to "put in your car what makes sense for your speeds" in my opinion.

 

NHRA has an interesting idea, if anyone's got a way to logically & fairly implement the "faster = more gear" idea... I'd love to hear it. Barring implementation of that idea, I've really got to put faith into people doing what makes sense to them. I'll be trying to talk more sense into them however

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Ken, that was my point - I was trying to avoid a NHRA approach of overall speed as compared to relative speed. Just because one is running in TTF doesn't reduce the risk of being at the edge of that car and having something bad happening as a TTU would. Granted Newton's Law would favor the TTF car when heading for a wall.

 

Perhaps your point is worth looking at - certain safety gear only at a certain level of TT class prep. Say, F, E and D (maybe C) are overall slow enough that they are OK with OEM safety. B and A (maybe C) require 4pt bolt in and 5pt, maybe HANS, etc. S, U and R would require full CCR Race Safety.

 

Couple of questions/concerns (in no order):

- If one is on the edge of moving into a new class, they may opt to stay down because of the cost of the safety requirement

- One cannot 'bump up' to possibly help with any contingencies

- Rules need written clarifying the details of the levels of safety (rather than saying DE level or Race level)

- others?

 

-Thoughts?

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Personal Responsibility must be dead in this country....

 

It won't matter to me as my "new" TT car has full wtw safety (so I can also do PT) - but a knee jerk thing over an accident so severe its hard to argue that even minimum wtw specs would've mattered is a bit rash. Are we going to require the same stuff for HPDE4, 3, etc - Billy Bob in his shiny new ZR1 even in DE1 is at a helluvalot more risk of death that I am in my wimpy little TTF car. All it takes is a minor little brake failure... competition or not is a bit irrelevant there. And right now we've had 1 death per category. Should we really look at mandating safety upgrades for everyone if 1 death is the metric we want to use?

 

If you don't think we're safe enough, don't run with us... simple as that.

(/thread)

 

Exactly, there is no way to satisfy the lawyers other than giving up the sport we love. And even that wouldn't keep them from finding another reason to sue us (they sue over hot coffee, remember). YOU are the person most responsible for your safety. You can make you and your car as safe as you want and can afford right now. It seems odd that someone would own a Hans and choose to not use it, and them complain that it wasn't mandatory.

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It seems odd that someone would own a Hans and choose to not use it, and them complain that it wasn't mandatory.

 

Yes it does seem strange. Now. Now, that something _did_ happen in TT.

 

It also seems strange that I used to travel around the country in the back of my parents pickup truck - no seatbelts, no car seats, etc. I would never think to do that with my children now.

 

It is seems strange to watch a movie/tv show where people are smoking at their desk or on a plane. It didn't back then.

 

Remember we only had to start wearing HANS' this year and many of the complaints were the same. Now that we have to have them, I do not hear complaints - only, boy am I glad I had it on after x,y, z happened.

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Personal Responsibility must be dead in this country....

 

It won't matter to me as my "new" TT car has full wtw safety (so I can also do PT) - but a knee jerk thing over an accident so severe its hard to argue that even minimum wtw specs would've mattered is a bit rash. Are we going to require the same stuff for HPDE4, 3, etc - Billy Bob in his shiny new ZR1 even in DE1 is at a helluvalot more risk of death that I am in my wimpy little TTF car. All it takes is a minor little brake failure... competition or not is a bit irrelevant there. And right now we've had 1 death per category. Should we really look at mandating safety upgrades for everyone if 1 death is the metric we want to use?

 

If you don't think we're safe enough, don't run with us... simple as that.

 

I'm sure Greenbaum & the powers that be are looking into it, especially since I know myself and another regional director or two have contacted him regarding looking into what makes sense for our series. We'll see what changes happen, this isn't something that we're going to be able to "settle" online, as its really opinion based.

 

(/thread)

 

 

I'm not sure how much my thoughts will help solve the issue of the necessary level of safety equipment for TT, but here goes:

 

I've been doing HPDE for ~12years, instructing for 10+ years. I have a single season of TT under my belt. I have always been as "competitive" as organizers will permit in an HPDE setting. When that was no longer enough, I found TT. The percentage of time spent at the limit is significantly higher in TT, so an argument could be made that the potential for part failures and talent shortfalls is also increased. I recognize that more often than not the drivers in TT possess more skill and experience than those in HPDE. However, TT is essentially a qualifying sesssion, where we all seek to lay down that one elusive, magic lap. And like qualifying in any racing series (amateur or professional) there are occassional incidents. It's my belief that TT is a step up from HPDE and a step down from W2W in terms of the intensity, costs and risks. To me it's safe to say that the risks in TT are generally higher than in HPDE and lower than in W2W.

 

This is where I think Ken hits it right on the head. There has to be a prominent place for personal responsibility in this. I've instructed in HPDE1 cars with only OE safety sytems that attained significantly higher speeds than my TTC car. I've turned faster laps in TT than a fair number of W2W cars. I've been in HPDE4 sessions that were wilder and "racier" than any TT session I've seen. And, I've had a braking system failure that resulted in a triple digit impact in an instructor session at a somewhat conservative non-NASA event.

 

What does this mean? To me it means that I'm not going to let a minimum safety standard be my safety standard. If the minimum doesn't seem like enough, I'll go farther. I'm not saying my equipment has to be at the leading edge of technology. It's a balancing act, and each of us assumes responsibility for his/her own safety every time we go on track. I've never read the waiver, but I assume it says that whatever happens is all my fault and I have no recourse. So, my HPDE car evolved from a street car to a dedicated track car with a weld-in cage, racing seats and 6-point harnesses. During season 1 of TT, I realized that there is sufficient reason to increase my personal safety, so I added a fire suppression system and purchased a HANS that I use religously. During the off-season, I'll be exploring my options for additional head and neck restraint capabilities. Is this overkill? Man, I hope so! Should every car in a TT session do all this? Not my decision. Should I do more? I think about it all the time.

 

As I said at the top, I don't know what the safety standards for TT should be. But I have to tell you that I have to question the wisdom of some of the competitors whose cars seem to possess much more speed than safety. The fact is that it all costs money. And most safety improvements don't make the car faster. But that's the old saying: If you've got a $10 head, buy a $10 helmet. Godspeed and good luck to all.

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When I started this thread I did it to start an intelligent safety discussion and it obviously has worked. I think many people have very strong opinions on what the actual rules should be versus personal choice. I live in Ohio which is a state that mandates seat belt use but allows motorcyclists to scatter their brains on the roads without a helmet. If this is not the most hypocritical combination of laws I do not know what is.

I guess I do not get the argument that people do not have the resources to have a safer car for track use. Patrick pointed out that many cars have purpose made harness bars that are available and removable. If you are doing more than a few TT events a year maybe you should have a dedicated track car with more safety equipment than an everyday street car. Hopefully all of this discussion by everyone will lead to someone acquiring more safety equipment that will keep them healthy. If I recall correctly Earnhardts impact was equivalent to 40 mph or so, and that 1 death has led to all forms of motorsport stepping up the requirements. Jim Downing was wearing early versions of the HANS in 1992 or so, at the time it was ridiculed as totally unneccessary and silly, it looked as if he had most of a lampshade on, now the use of a head and neck restraint is as normal as wearing a helmet.

 

matt

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