kbrew8991 Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 I'm guessing a FWD car could load up on front tire width while keeping the rear more "normal," thereby possibly eliminating understeer completely without having to stiffen the rear of the car through braces/dampers/springs/etc. Dunno... just throwing that out there. Mainly though, I think it's easier to enforce and one less thing to screw up. and yet, they could do that right now and save points (not AS much, but some..), but they don't... why? Because it doesn't work out that great in the real world for alot of people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32EVOIX Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 The bigger problem is - there should be no reason for someone to lose a regional championship over this... it's pretty basic stuff! Makes me wonder where the oversight for the Florida TT region was this year. Sounds like Florida has had some issues reading the TT rules or having someone help their competitors be legal to the TT rules. I hope that changes soon. Patrick Patrick, Don’t you think you are being a little hard on us Florida guys? You are jumping into conclusions based on two incidents which were clearly honest mistakes, mine had I intended to cheat or deceive I would not have mentioned anything about it innocently on an open post. Secondly, you know nothing about the situation with this guy nor do you know the guy, which by the way in my estimation it is always important in passing judgment. Firstly, the guy is new this year in TT. Secondly, the rules may be OH so clear to you, but you would be surprised how many people have problems interpreting them. Consequently, honest mistakes are made. Thirdly, the guy brought this subject up himself nobody caught him cheating (by the way your crank shaft example in prior post was an absurd analogy) and upon going over the rules again, he discovered he had made a mistake and took it upon himself to bring it to everyone’s attention. This is one of the nicest most honest guys I know, and I don’t know about you but that means a lot to me. So to use your own words stop being a D!ck, people are going to start thinking that you are one of these guys that every time he gets beat screams out cheater. You know there are honest people out there that do make honest mistakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Averaging sounds like a can of worms best left closed to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor57 Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 The bigger problem is - there should be no reason for someone to lose a regional championship over this... it's pretty basic stuff! Makes me wonder where the oversight for the Florida TT region was this year. Sounds like Florida has had some issues reading the TT rules or having someone help their competitors be legal to the TT rules. I hope that changes soon. Patrick Patrick, Don’t you think you are being a little hard on us Florida guys? You are jumping into conclusions based on two incidents which were clearly honest mistakes, mine had I intended to cheat or deceive I would not have mentioned anything about it innocently on an open post. Secondly, you know nothing about the situation with this guy nor do you know the guy, which by the way in my estimation it is always important in passing judgment. Firstly, the guy is new this year in TT. Secondly, the rules may be OH so clear to you, but you would be surprised how many people have problems interpreting them. Consequently, honest mistakes are made. Thirdly, the guy brought this subject up himself nobody caught him cheating (by the way your crank shaft example in prior post was an absurd analogy) and upon going over the rules again, he discovered he had made a mistake and took it upon himself to bring it to everyone’s attention. This is one of the nicest most honest guys I know, and I don’t know about you but that means a lot to me. So to use your own words stop being a D!ck, people are going to start thinking that you are one of these guys that every time he gets beat screams out cheater. You know there are honest people out there that do make honest mistakes. It sounds to me like he is saying the same thing you are, mistakes were made not on purpose, but because people weren't reading the rules enough, or getting the proper help with interpreting the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vpnwiz Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 So to use your own words stop being a D!ck, people are going to start thinking that you are one of these guys that every time he gets beat screams out cheater. You know there are honest people out there that do make honest mistakes. Jimmy, You know what... now I'll be a d!ck. Before I was just being honest but evidently some people have issues with that. "Honest mistakes" or stupid mistakes? Your mistake was just stupid and now you're being defensive about it. For as much trash as you talk your sh!t needs to be spotless clean. And yet, you weren't. If I were you I would walk away from this before someone asks you to give up your championship for running an illegal part. Move on. Patrick BTW - any time you want to add weight and come play in D you are welcome. I make several trips a year out of the GL/MW region. You may want to do a little research before you take me up on that though because I'll kick your @ss on the track with the Bumblebee and send you home with your tail between your legs. With a 100% legal car, too. BTW BTW - good job pulling the focus off the problems in Florida TT. The fact remains you guys had illegal cars competing all season and no one cared enough to catch it or do anything about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Oh, boy...the keyboard toughguy has reared his head...I figured that it would come to this. The sad part is that none of "whatever" happened at Nationals or "whatever" happened in Florida had any affect on his PTD Miata in Ohio or anywhere else, so he just wants to make noise for no apparent reason other than to be...a keyboard toughguy. We bow to his supremacy, if it makes him feel better. Can we get back on topic anytime soon? Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vpnwiz Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Oh, boy...the keyboard toughguy has reared his head...I figured that it would come to this. The sad part is that none of "whatever" happened at Nationals or "whatever" happened in Florida had any affect on his PTD Miata in Ohio or anywhere else, so he just wants to make noise for no apparent reason other than to be...a keyboard toughguy. We bow to his supremacy, if it makes him feel better. Mark, I'm not just a keyboard tough guy. I like to kill puppies. Read up. Go ahead and defend your buddy if that makes you feel better. The fact remains an illegal car was brought to a National competition. It DID affect me because I was a TT competitor and cheating brings us all down. If you want to defend cheating however it happens that's your call. Just know that if you ever show up in MY class you can be damn sure I will be crawling all over your car with your form in hand. Can we get back on topic anytime soon? I already asked to do that, when you felt the need to call me a keyboard tough guy. Now, would you like to get back on topic for real or shall I smack you around with my electrons a little more? Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Patrick can be, ah, a little vocal sometime.... But he kind of does bring up a point. A whole group of guys came up from FL to compete in TT at Nationals and overall did very well. Then it comes out one of the cars wasn't legal...and that the rules weren't necessarily interpreted right in their region all year...and you could see where people might jump to some conclusions. I don't want to start more of a fight over this, and I wish we could stop right there and focus on the big issue: TT inspections need to be better. At regional events and definately at nationals. People have alot on the line at nationals and the inspections haven't reflected that the last couple of years. Yes, I know we're dealing with volunteers, lots of cars and voluminious points sheets. I know there are challenges. But - I do still feel - inspections should be much more thorough, just to alleviate these types of concerns. - Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperkins Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vpnwiz Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 ^^^^^ True If anyone wants to continue this part of the discussion please start another thread. This one is back on topic about PT/TT Rule Updates and Changes for '09. So sayeth the keyboard tough guy, and yes I will sneak another smiley face in Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Averaging sounds like a can of worms best left closed to me. if written properly - how so? It would reflect the actual amount of rubber that is meeting the road... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor57 Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 It also gives a huge advantage to only certain cars, and no advantage to alot of other cars. That is the exact opposite of what rules should do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart Carter Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 I have never considered different tire sizes, as I run TTR. So I looked at the rules from a fresh point. Here is my take on the tire size rules: 1. Tires are sized per class, not per vehicle. The various merits or faults of any certain car is not taken into account with size, that is accounted for in other places. This means to me that if you are allowed a 245 size tire, it should be looked at as the average size for any given car. If a car has a 50/50 weight distribution, then it may work out best to have tires of equal size. If a car has a 30/70 weight distribution, I feel that car has an unintended penalty placed upon it. Again, tires are sized per class, not vehicle. Average size per vehicle should be used as to not penalize cars that need different sizes to accommodate weight distribution that is inherent in their design. That is taken into account in the base classification. 2. The increased tire width beyond the listed is pretty straight forward. 3. I also read the decreased tire width as straight forward. It states that points may be gotten back by “reversing the assessments listed above using the smaller decrease of front or rear for cars using split sizes”. It does not state that if the front or rear set is larger you cannot take off points for a smaller set on the other end. To the contrary, it even mentions this is used for cars using split sizes. The wider set shouldn’t even be considered because the rules state that you use the smaller decrease and the wider set is not a decrease, it is an increase. So, looking at both the intent and the letter of the rules as written, I would read this as taking points and getting points back for wider and narrower tire sizes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliancates Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 The wider set shouldn’t even be considered because the rules state that you use the smaller decrease and the wider set is not a decrease, it is an increase. I would disagree with that point. The wider set is a "negative decrease" and is therefore the smaller of the two decreases and should be the decrease used in the calculation. My $.02 of course, as someone looking to join in the fray in the near future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 It also gives a huge advantage to only certain cars, and no advantage to alot of other cars. That is the exact opposite of what rules should do. you made me HUGE - eh, it erases our disadvantage. And it should give no advantage to the cars with equal sizes all around. Next. to illustrate it further: a 92-95 Honda Civic Si (TTF @ 2390) with 4 x 215s (860mm total) +0 from tire width vs a 91-95 MR2 NA (TTF* @ 2657) with 2 x 205s; 2 x 225s (860mm total) +1 from tire width That costs 1 extra point why? The "mid-engine advantage" is already assessed with the stupid * I carry... the Honda is lighter, can make more power easier, and FWD is not a handicap at <150whp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart Carter Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 ...The wider set is a "negative decrease" and is therefore the smaller of the two decreases and should be the decrease used in the calculation... A "negative decrease"? What a twist of words to state something that is contrary to what is written in the rules. “reversing the assessments listed above using the smaller decrease of front or rear for cars using split sizes” 1. there is to be a reverse of the assesment for the wider tire if a narrower tire is also used. 2. this is to be applied to cars using split sizes It's not that hard to take a plus and a minus to come up with the correct points. That would be the largest plus and the smallest minus, for those of you that are contemplating 4 different sizes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart Carter Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 ...it erases our disadvantage. And it should give no advantage to the cars with equal sizes all around... +1 Ken, you are exactly right. The tire size rule as written is not supposed to penalize cars that need split sizes to utilize a given tire width per class. Other considerations are already in place for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor57 Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 What disadvantage do you have? This would only help mid engine cars, and rwd that make decent power. Good thing this rule isn't going anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32EVOIX Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 You know what... now I'll be a d!ck. Before I was just being honest but evidently some people have issues with that. "Honest mistakes" or stupid mistakes? Your mistake was just stupid and now you're being defensive about it. For as much trash as you talk your sh!t needs to be spotless clean. And yet, you weren't. If I were you I would walk away from this before someone asks you to give up your championship for running an illegal part. Move on. Patrick BTW - any time you want to add weight and come play in D you are welcome. I make several trips a year out of the GL/MW region. You may want to do a little research before you take me up on that though because I'll kick your @ss on the track with the Bumblebee and send you home with your tail between your legs. With a 100% legal car, too. BTW BTW - good job pulling the focus off the problems in Florida TT. The fact remains you guys had illegal cars competing all season and no one cared enough to catch it or do anything about it. Honest? You don’t seem to have any idea what you are talking about. Look here genius there is an entire profession made out of interpreting verbiage, and language with rules and law. The spirit of the rules is to promote fairness and to eliminate competitive advantage. Read this from the rules: “The intent of the rules and safety considerations will be the overriding factors in making such decisions, as opposed to a constrained interpretation of the rules based on phraseology or verbiage”. Now let’s take the rule that I allegedly broke, “If a modification is not allowed by the rules it is prohibited”. This could basically and literally be anything that is on the car would be illegal endless it is the cars stock trim or specifically mentioned in the rules. I would venture to say that if you take this verbiage literally you could walk up and down pit lane and probably DQ every TT car, but that would not be the intent of the rule now would it? This is a CYA rule that you must have in anything like this. I admitted that my mistake was exactly what you called it stupid, but to label the entire region cheater is out of line. Let me enlighten you a little about the nationals and Tech. Firstly, I don’t know what event you were at but where I was I saw lot’s of people busting their behinds to put on an incredible event. Cars where being scrutinized left and right, in fact one guy in our run group was DQ’d. So to criticize the organization is patently unfair they did the best they could, and in my opinion put on a great event. What it sounds more like to me is that you have some kind of inferiority issue about people being better than you. We heard rumors that we were labeled as cheaters simply because we broke all the track records where ever we go and that we were going to get scrutinized very carefully. Indeed that was the case every single one of us was scrutinized, some over and over in fact one of our guys was scrutinized 4 times and put on the dyno twice. We won everything we entered (except TTS got second, thanks Danny) and the only reason you won TTD is because we did not have a car entered there. But fear not Schumacher, there was one of our PTE cars in the race which kicked your ahrss with one of our least experienced drivers. This brings me to my last point. There is not enough weight to put in my car to make it go that slow. However, I would like to turn this negativity into something positive, so here is my suggestion. I have never driven one of those S%*t boxes, way too slow for me, but I think that I would love to drive your car. We should pick an event this year where we both drive your car (adjust weight I am a fat bastard) and that way you can get the true feeling of getting beat in your own car. Furthermore, we should have everyone, in TT throw in money with a $10 minimum collect a pot of which it would go to a charity. If that dosen’t strike your fancy I noticed that our TTE champion was less than .2 slower than your winning time at Mid-Ohio with his miata. If he agrees I will drive his car and kick your Ahrss with a TTE car. But I will only do this if we can get some way to get some money to charity, so we can all have a good time and do something good. Be careful what you ask for tough guy, let me know if you want to play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliancates Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 A "negative decrease"? What a twist of words to state something that is contrary to what is written in the rules. OK... I admit to reaching a bit there. Rules say "using the smaller decrease of front or rear for cars using split sizes". If there's 0mm decrease in the rear, and a 10mm decrease in the front, then the rear would be the "smaller decrease", no? That being said, I don't think my interpretation would be the "fair" interpretation. And the mere fact that the rule as written affords for different interpretations means that it should be clarified, in my opinion, and explicitly state how points should be assessed for each possible case: All tires oversize All tires undersize Some tires undersize / some tires at base size Some tires oversize / some tires at base size Some tires undersize / some tires oversize Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 What disadvantage do you have? Did you not read the whole thing? How can I make this more clear? - 1 extra point to have the same rubber on the ground as other cars in my class while I'm already taking +7 from the asterix for the traction under acceleration and braking prowess that the layout provides. A properly worded "average size" could also simplify the issues outlined above by juliancates Again - Any car's inherent advantages/disadvantages are already assessed in the base classifications. Assessing them twice by hitting them in the tires on top of that isn't very "level". I'm glad you're not writing the rules actually Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor57 Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 I am also glad I don't write the rules, because then I would have to listen to all of the whiners. At least now I can just skim. Staggering is an advantage, or you wouldn't do it. So there you go, +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperkins Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 if written properly - how so? It would reflect the actual amount of rubber that is meeting the road... I'm starting to really like this Ken guy.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krisa9977 Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Anyway, about Florida TT: we are ALL competitors in TT. ALL OF US. And we should all be held to the same standards of bringing a legal car to compete. Anyone who shows up to TT in Florida should be paddocked next to each other, checking out each their cars to help out! Going over forms, looking at the car, etc. If there is a question about the legality of a car - ask everyone! Open it up. Losing one or two sessions from a weekend sucks a lot less than losing a whole season. That's all. Patrick We were all from Florida in TTB except for one guy with Chevy Impala at Nationals. We had whole season competing with each other and examining each other car. I'm sure that nobody questions Jimmy's TTB National Championship and his car legality in our TTB group. I was second in TTB right after Jimmy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krisa9977 Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 BTW. I was very disappointed to have only four guys in one group with three of them from the same region at Nationals. I think it would be a good idea to join TTA/TTB , TTC/TTD, TTE/TTF together to have three classes instead of six to make Time Trial more competitive. (just an idea) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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