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2009 PT/TT Rule Updates and Changes--12-19-08


Greg G.

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Staggering is an advantage, or you wouldn't do it. So there you go, +1

 

my advantage is assessed in the +7 from the asterix in the base classing - just like any other car's inherent advantages/disadvantages. Reading is fundamental.

 

fine, if we're going to nickel and dime oddly laid out cars for stuff like this, give them all an asterix back. I think you'll want to let us average our tires though if forced to pick between the two however.

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Honest? ... “If a modification is not allowed by the rules it is prohibited”. This could basically and literally be anything that is on the car would be illegal endless it is the cars stock trim or specifically mentioned in the rules. This is a CYA rule that you must have in anything like this.

So now you are trying to justify running the EDFC? And you try to compare your EDFC with something minor, are you? To quote from Tein's web site: "The EDFC (Electronic Damping Force Controller) makes it possible for the driver to control the damping force at the touch of a button while in the driverfs seat." Good luck with that one. You admitted it was a performance enhancing device, but then claimed ignorance of the same rule you quote above. Your attitude that this is somehow not a big deal is insulting to the rest of us that worked hard to bring legal TT cars to a national competition.

 

I admitted that my mistake was exactly what you called it stupid, but to label the entire region cheater is out of line.

I never said the entire region was cheating, so don't claim I wrote things to try to make a point. But after reading your posts and understanding your attitude I am realizing it is probably just your team that's cheating, especially if you have anything to do with setting up the cars.

 

Let me enlighten you a little about the nationals and Tech. Firstly, I don’t know what event you were at but where I was I saw lot’s of people busting their behinds to put on an incredible event. Cars where being scrutinized left and right, in fact one guy in our run group was DQ’d.

Let me enlighten you, oh wise one, on what didn't happen in the TTC/D/E/F run group: dyno's, scales, and inspections. Nothing happened. I won TTD and didn't get checked once. Not even weighed. Our oversight was very lax.

 

What it sounds more like to me is that you have some kind of inferiority issue about people being better than you. We heard rumors that we were labeled as cheaters simply because we broke all the track records where ever we go...

Umm... you were cheating. How do you not understand that? EDFC=illegal. Maybe there was a point to the rumors... BTW I won TTD, what do I have to feel inferior about? Please make some sense.

 

But fear not Schumacher, there was one of our PTE cars in the race which kicked your ahrss with one of our least experienced drivers.

Would that be the one who's best lap was 4 seconds slower than mine, or 5 seconds slower? I was punted by a Porsche in lap 12 and he was DQ'd. BTW, I was in 1st place when it happened. What was your point again? Is this similar to how you claimed you kick TTA Z06's all over the track but are actually 3+ seconds/lap slower? You've got a very big mouth, Jimmy, but you don't think much before you open it.

 

We should pick an event this year where we both drive your car (adjust weight I am a fat bastard) and that way you can get the true feeling of getting beat in your own car. Furthermore, we should have everyone, in TT throw in money with a $10 minimum collect a pot of which it would go to a charity.

We won't adjust anything. I don't. I just get in and drive. I don't even know what alignment settings or corner weights I was running this year. Come on, you are man enough to do that too, right? BTW if this happens you will be in my car because I know it's legal. And we won't collect money or do anything else like that. We'll just do it.

 

If that dosen’t strike your fancy I noticed that our TTE champion was less than .2 slower than your winning time at Mid-Ohio with his miata.

Interesting that you brought that up, Jimmy. Did you help set up his car? Because you've made it very clear what you think about following the TT rules.

 

Patrick

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I think the next event that you 2 attend should pick one random person out of the crowd and supply that person with a ruler.

 

Then you 2 should stand side by side and whip out your penis's and have them measured so we can end this once and for all.

 

Thank you for playing. Nothing to see here move along.....

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I am tired of talking about this, there is no if we are going to do it, we are doing it Road Atlanta either in March or August. I don’t know if I can make March yet but if I cannot I will definitely be there in August. What I meant about adjustments is weight, I don’t know how much you weigh I am 205 lbs. There might be a need to either take weight out of the car or put some in to make sure everything is even. As far as any other adjustments no problem I will get in and drive the car they way you have it set up. Are we in agreement? Let me know what works for you PM me.

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I think the next event that you 2 attend should pick one random person out of the crowd and supply that person with a ruler.

 

Then you 2 should stand side by side and whip out your penis's and have them measured so we can end this once and for all.

 

Thank you for playing. Nothing to see here move along.....

 

That's good Shawn pretty funny.

 

Seriously though I am not pissed in what he says about me, I could care less I let my driving do the talking. What has me so worked up is that this guy has thrown an entire region, and Nasa personnel at the nationals under the bus and has accused people of cheating without knowing them nor having any cause to do so. I know how hard my fellow competitors work at being totally compliant, because we win so much we go through tech all the time. The cars are all legal. In his latest claim is that nobody checked his run group, implying that the director was incompetent. Well, Rene won the TTC championship and they went through his car twice and dyno once he was in his run group and so was Greg. The other thing he doesn’t know that in my run group the director was his own regions director whom he also threw under the bus with his comments. The reality is that John did a fantastic job, he got every car through tech at least once put a whole bunch of cars on the dyno, in fact he put Spanky on the dyno twice and went over his car four times. He DQ’d a car that was not compliant and ran a fantastic championship. So when this @ss clown screams where the supervision was he is full of it. My car and all my teammate’s cars went through thorough inspections and have been scrutinized dozens of times by different directors at different tracks, an on going process. I run with NASA and I like the organization I think there are lot’s of people working hard to make it successful, you helped me a lot at the Nationals if you recall. I will not cannot stand there and listen to some guy talk out his @ss. Lastly, I am an optimist, I don’t believe that everyone is out there cheating as my first thought just because they are quick, the thought that does cross my mind is that they are probably pretty good drivers. And I will move along I am tired of this conversation.

 

PS I know for a fact mine is bigger

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From the outside looking in(no dog in this particular fight), my thought that the scrutineering so-to-speak could definitely be better. I ran half a season in SE PT, and no-one ever looked at my car or asked for my points sheet. These couple instances in this thread, at least to me, are pretty obvious violations that should have been found if the cars were inspected like I wish they were. Hopefully as the groups continue to grow and the competition gets even better, the inspections will follow suit.

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I think the next event that you 2 attend should pick one random person out of the crowd and supply that person with a ruler.

 

Then you 2 should stand side by side and whip out your penis's and have them measured so we can end this once and for all.

 

Thank you for playing. Nothing to see here move along.....

 

That's good Shawn pretty funny.

 

Seriously though I am not pissed in what he says about me, I could care less I let my driving do the talking. What has me so worked up is that this guy has thrown an entire region, and Nasa personnel at the nationals under the bus and has accused people of cheating without knowing them nor having any cause to do so. I know how hard my fellow competitors work at being totally compliant, because we win so much we go through tech all the time. The cars are all legal. In his latest claim is that nobody checked his run group, implying that the director was incompetent. Well, Rene won the TTC championship and they went through his car twice and dyno once he was in his run group and so was Greg. The other thing he doesn’t know that in my run group the director was his own regions director whom he also threw under the bus with his comments. The reality is that John did a fantastic job, he got every car through tech at least once put a whole bunch of cars on the dyno, in fact he put Spanky on the dyno twice and went over his car four times. He DQ’d a car that was not compliant and ran a fantastic championship. So when this @ss clown screams where the supervision was he is full of it. My car and all my teammate’s cars went through thorough inspections and have been scrutinized dozens of times by different directors at different tracks, an on going process. I run with NASA and I like the organization I think there are lot’s of people working hard to make it successful, you helped me a lot at the Nationals if you recall. I will not cannot stand there and listen to some guy talk out his @ss. Lastly, I am an optimist, I don’t believe that everyone is out there cheating as my first thought just because they are quick, the thought that does cross my mind is that they are probably pretty good drivers. And I will move along I am tired of this conversation.

 

PS I know for a fact mine is bigger

 

I don't have a dog in this fight either (Patrick and I have had our disagreements as well) and I have only been lurking lately, but isn't it a fact that your car had some fancy electronically adjustable from inside the cockpit suspension that you didn't claim points for? If that's the case, your car was illegal, period. No need to put a label on it like "cheating". An illegal car is an illegal car, whatever your motive (or lack of it), and whether or not the scrutineers caught it and it should be DQ'd. If I'm wrong about your car, I'll go back to my cave.

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What has me so worked up is that this guy has thrown an entire region, and Nasa personnel at the nationals under the bus and has accused people of cheating without knowing them nor having any cause to do so. I know how hard my fellow competitors work at being totally compliant, because we win so much we go through tech all the time. The cars are all legal. ... He DQ’d a car that was not compliant and ran a fantastic championship. So when this @ss clown screams where the supervision was he is full of it.

Saying the cars were all legal, well that's a flat out lie by your own admission. Yours wasn't. See previous thread links. EDFC=illegal. Greg said he would have DQ'd your times. What baffles me is why doesn't he do it now. Greg? Maybe he can speak up on that. You've admitted that you don't have any problem with what you did, and even worse tried to justify it! I fully expect you to do it again. I don't think you have any respect for the rules.

 

FACT: I won Nationals and my car was never inspected. FACT: Check the Nationals forum for threads discussing how poor the scrutineering was this year. I'm full of what? The truth. I've already given my constructive criticism to NASA. What's yours - "Check me less so I can cheat more"?

 

I never accused you of cheating, you admitted it - TRUE. I never accused anyone in Florida of cheating, Mark from FL said it - TRUE. Deflect, deflect, deflect is an old political strategy but you are not gonna get away with it with me. You can try to make up things and say I said them, but it ain't true and I'm gonna keep calling you out on it.

 

I will not cannot stand there and listen to some guy talk out his @ss.

And I won't stand by and listen to you run your mouth about how awesome you are when you are cheating. Just because you weren't caught at the event doesn't mean what you did wasn't WRONG.

 

You know, I already gave you a chance to drop this. You don't have the sense to leave a fight when you are wrong.

 

Now all you've done is brought a lot of attention to how you cheated at Nationals and got away with a trophy to show for it. My job is done.

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From the outside looking in(no dog in this particular fight), my thought that the scrutineering so-to-speak could definitely be better. I ran half a season in SE PT, and no-one ever looked at my car or asked for my points sheet. These couple instances in this thread, at least to me, are pretty obvious violations that should have been found if the cars were inspected like I wish they were. Hopefully as the groups continue to grow and the competition gets even better, the inspections will follow suit.

Yes, many of us in Great Lakes (and probably just about all of the TT competitors) agree with this. There were several threads started after Nationals discussing what we thought about it. I think it's very important that better inspections filter down to the regional level as well. We are going to have some pre-season TT/PT events this year to go over everyone's cars, too, so if you don't have the oversight in your region you can always do it yourself!

 

I don't have a dog in this fight either (Patrick and I have had our disagreements as well) and I have only been lurking lately, but isn't it a fact that your car had some fancy electronically adjustable from inside the cockpit suspension that you didn't claim points for? If that's the case, your car was illegal, period. No need to put a label on it like "cheating". An illegal car is an illegal car, whatever your motive (or lack of it), and whether or not the scrutineers caught it and it should be DQ'd. If I'm wrong about your car, I'll go back to my cave.

Just for the record I wasn't the first to say "cheater"... Jimmy was. But once he tried to justify having the part on the car, well, that's enough for me and the gloves are off.

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Whatever dude, all I want to know is are we on for Road Atlanta. I said I was done with this going nowhere conversation. Are you going to back up your mouth let me know. Road Atlanta is half way I believe for both of us.

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I am also glad I don't write the rules, because then I would have to listen to all of the whiners. At least now I can just skim.

 

Staggering is an advantage, or you wouldn't do it. So there you go, +1

WINNER, WINNER, WINNER.............YOU WIN!!!

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I am also glad I don't write the rules, because then I would have to listen to all of the whiners. At least now I can just skim.

 

Staggering is an advantage, or you wouldn't do it. So there you go, +1

WINNER, WINNER, WINNER.............YOU WIN!!!

 

you also fail at reading - but thats ok, give us (mid engine & rear engine cars) all an asterix back (because we're assessed up for our natural advantages) and we'll DEFINITELY quit whining about having to take +1-7ish for our tires to be equal with our conventional counterparts.

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I am also glad I don't write the rules, because then I would have to listen to all of the whiners. At least now I can just skim.

 

Staggering is an advantage, or you wouldn't do it. So there you go, +1

 

That's just complete nonsense. How could you argue that point against a C5 Corvette? You don't think I'd be better off running 295's on all 4 corners?

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I can't believe that I just read all of that (last 4-5 pages). We have had those tire size rules for two full seasons, and never had anyone misunderstand the wording prior to this (that I am aware of). Where does it say to take a credit for a smaller size, and an assessment for a bigger size if the tires are staggered and split with the base size in the middle? Here is the actual line to fill out on the car classification form:

Base Class Tire Size_________mm Actual Tire Size_________mm Difference________mm #Points_________

 

I don't see were it says, "Actual larger tire size_______________mm and Actual smaller tire size_______________mm"

This is just a real stretch to try and make that out of this rule. We use the largest tire, period. Now, I'm not going to change the PT Rules again for just this change to "Actual Largest Tire Size", but I can still put it on the TT Rules and CC Form. But, this is exactly the type of "track lawyer" stuff that is really annoying. If you have a question, ask your regional PT or TT Director, or ask me. I get thousands of e-mails a year, one more won't break my back. We have about 20 other regional TT and PT Directors that are to be used as resources. If there is a question about a clarification or ruling that was explained to you by a regional TT/PT Director, send me an e-mail. Don't wait for the Championships.

 

Now, I haven't seen the Car Classification Form that the competitor turned in, but I imagine that if this section was filled out, that the mistake would have been picked up by anyone (else) looking at the form. Competitors look at each other's forms in my region all of the time.

 

As far as Jimmy's case is concerned:

From a technical/legal standpoint, I WAS NOT his Race Director at the Championships. I WAS NOT the Race Director of the entire event. By virtue of the "Race Director" system, and at the request of the Race Directors of the two TT groups and the Event Chairman, I maintained a "hands off" policy with TT. I was only involved in clarifying a few rules and to look over the case of the DQ that was mentioned (at the request of the TT Race Director). So, when the TT Race Director of Jimmy's group made the results official, and there was not a protest within the required time period per the CCR, that is it. He is the winner. It doesn't matter after-the-fact what is disclosed. I have no legal mechanism to "take" his championship from him.

 

Now, some have brought up the word, "cheater". All I know is that from what Jimmy himself disclosed, his car had an illegal part that had previously been given a waiver and point assessment for another participant a few years ago (that never used it). So, without any points to spare, the car would have been illegal for the class. This does not mean that Jimmy is a "cheater". It may mean other things, but "cheaters" don't usually divulge their "secrets" in the Forum of the organization that they desire to continue to compete with. Are there cheaters out there? Unfortunately, yes there are. But, there are also non-compliant or "illegal" cars out there with drivers that do not have malicious intentions. Intent is obviously a tough thing to prove, which is why the rules allow for harsh penalties regardless of intent. I do not think that Jimmy intended on cheating. If I did, I would expel him from the TT and PT series. As far as I'm concerned, this case is closed, and hopefully all involved have learned something.

 

As for averaging tire sizes on cars with staggered tire sizes:

Forget it. First, nobody is forcing anyone to run with them. If someone chooses to run with smaller front (or rear) tires, it is because it is a performance advantage. Otherwise, they would be running the larger size tire on all four corners for the same number of points if it was an advantage to run them even. The intent of this rule, and the way that cars are classed have both always been that we use the largest tire on the car as the one to assess points with (this includes the prior rules that used OEM tire sizes as the base tire size). Cars have not been classed with a factor built in to assess them for being better or worse with split tire sizes. Asterisks (for the hundredth time) are just used as a continuum of base classes to give us 24 base classes instead of 8 to start with. Whether a car has an asterisk, or two, or none, has nothing to do with whether or not NASA feels that the car has any inherent advantages (or disadvantages). There are plenty of cars with no asterisks that have been assessed in base classing for their advantages in various aspects that affect performance.

 

As far as scrutinizing cars:

When are the competitors going to take advantage of the rules? They are permitted to look at competitor's Car Classification Forms, and even look at the cars. So, if you care, then you may want to look at what your competition is doing. As far as the '08 Championships is concerned, many of you got what you asked for--take that how you want (and you know if I'm speaking about you). I expect that NASA will continue to improve upon the concurrent and post-competition technical inspections of TT and PT cars.

 

 

Happy New Year.

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I am so glad that I don't have anything to do with rules or administration. I have to say there is nothing I could be offered to take over Greg's role. I hope I don't see the day that Greg decides he has had enough, because it would take three people to replace him. Although I have to say that he is not alone, he just seems to be the one that always takes the heat or has to come up with the official responses.

 

That said, here are my thoughts on how the rules are written:

 

...Where does it say to take a credit for a smaller size, and an assessment for a bigger size if the tires are staggered and split with the base size in the middle? Here is the actual line to fill out on the car classification form:

Base Class Tire Size_________mm Actual Tire Size_________mm Difference________mm #Points_________

 

I don't see were it says, "Actual larger tire size_______________mm and Actual smaller tire size_______________mm"

This is just a real stretch to try and make that out of this rule. We use the largest tire, period. Now, I'm not going to change the PT Rules again for just this change to "Actual Largest Tire Size", but I can still put it on the TT Rules and CC Form. But, this is exactly the type of "track lawyer" stuff that is really annoying...

 

“reversing the assessments listed above using the smaller decrease of front or rear for cars using split sizes”

 

Why would the rules state for cars using split sizes? Why would the reversing be for front or rear as to split sizes? Maybe I am not reading the rules right. Maybe that is not the intent. If it isn't the intent, the rules should have been written to state that simply the largest tire size is used for points, plus or minus. It obviously doesn't.

 

As far as the classification form, it should include the rules options. If my car were affected, I would have pursued this to the end. I am not trying to be a track lawyer, I have never been affected by this rule. But if the intent is to base points only on the largest tire used, that should be stated and no mention of cars using split sizes. I personally would vote for average size per class as that would take away the inherent advantage of cars with 50/50 weight distributions.

 

...As for averaging tire sizes on cars with staggered tire sizes:

Forget it. First, nobody is forcing anyone to run with them. If someone chooses to run with smaller front (or rear) tires, it is because it is a performance advantage. Otherwise, they would be running the larger size tire on all four corners for the same number of points if it was an advantage to run them even. The intent of this rule, and the way that cars are classed have both always been that we use the largest tire on the car as the one to assess points with (this includes the prior rules that used OEM tire sizes as the base tire size)...

 

Running with smaller tires is NOT a performance advantage. If it were, smaller tires would be assessed points. Cars in the same class have the same tire width limits. Smaller tires on certain cars are chosen for one axle because the other axle is the limiting factor and the handling stays safe because of the needed balance with weight distribution. The cars with a 50/50 weight distribution have an unfair advantage over cars with an unbalanced weight distribution because they can fully utilize the total tire width allocated. But, if the intent is truly to use the largest tire for the points calculation, simply state it and take out all references to reversing assessments and split sizes.

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I Here is the actual line to fill out on the car classification form:

Base Class Tire Size_________mm Actual Tire Size_________mm Difference________mm #Points_________

 

I don't see were it says, "Actual larger tire size_______________mm and Actual smaller tire size_______________mm"

 

 

You nailed it Bart.

 

I'm the guy that originally asked the question, which was oddly enough truly was an honest question. I never knew that this would turn into a 10 page finger pointing b!tch-fest. I'm so glad Greg that you posted the "actual line to fill out on the car classification form" above because I believe it proves my point that as the way the RULES (not tech form) are written, it is in fact not clear. I am not a TT competitor and never have been, but I read the rules often as I intend to enter TT asap. Therefore, I have never SEEN the actual TECH FORM. That being said, after READING THE TECH FORM, I would agree that the is no points allowance for not using the allowed base tire size on either axle.

 

But, the argument that staggered tire size is a benefit on a road course is just laughable. Staggering tires is only a benefit if used on a drag strip or oval track - period. Sure you could run a huge tire on the front to eliminate understeer as previously mentioned, but what about the inevitable oversteer problem that would create? Would that equal out? I don't know because I'm not an expert, but it sure doesn't seem like a smart thing to do.

 

You have to understand that for someone like myself to undertsand the "intent" of the rules without it being stated clearly in the rule book is the same as being a mind reader. THAT'S WHY I ASKED THE QUESTION TO START WITH.

 

Even though it took several pages of threats and fussin, I'm glad that the question has now been clearly answered.

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...I'm glad that the question has now been clearly answered.

 

Which question? Is the classification form right or are the rules right?

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This has been 10 pages of interesting reads....especially the last couple between the two bickering about cheating............

 

As far as rules enforcement goes, there is alot to be desired , and the individual regions have no consistancy. At Mid-Ohio there is always a dyno to poilce rules compliance of pwr/wt classes (primarily TTU,TTS and TTA). From what I understand in talking with the SE guy and attending Mid-Atlantic events , there are NO dynos to check compliance.....

 

Additionally I was never checked at Nationals in either car (TTU and TTS) and won both......The TTS car had gone across the dyno in ST2 the day before and found not-comliant, so we added a BUNCH of wieght to it and got the opportunity on the "greeeeeeeeeennn" track early Saturday afternoon......I was invited to the scales in both cars but never across the dyno.......Probably would have found my TTU car in the low octane spark table before I came home from Nationals

 

Establishing records in regions were there are no dynos is ,well, a little skeptical.....

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I personally would vote for average size per class as that would take away the inherent advantage of cars with 50/50 weight distributions.

 

....

 

The cars with a 50/50 weight distribution have an unfair advantage over cars with an unbalanced weight distribution because they can fully utilize the total tire width allocated. But, if the intent is truly to use the largest tire for the points calculation, simply state it and take out all references to reversing assessments and split sizes.

 

Averaging tire size would give even more advantage to the cars with the inherent advantage of 50/50 weight distribution. Those RWD cars usually have factory staggered wheel setup.

 

I've got M3 with almost 50/50 weight distribution. No matter what you guys think, I find my 245/275 setup better then square 275/275 setup. That's the way the car came from the factory and that's the way I like it. I know, there are many guys with same cars who find square wheel setup better, but it is their personal preferences. I've done a lot of testing and I know that staggered is better for me (may be it is my driving style). Averaging definitely would give me even more advantage.

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that "advantage" is taken into account when its classed unless Greenbaum is just pulling performance numbers out of his butt when assigning base classes (which may actually explain a few things just kidding).

 

Skidpad numbers, slalom numbers, etc - basically any method that is used to measure a cars factory handling performance is done on the factory tire types, sizes, etc. So if staggering is an advantage (or disadvantage) it shows up there, and is thusly reflected when that data is used to initially classify a car (unless its some hp:weight deal...?? is it?)

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that "advantage" is taken into account when its classed unless Greenbaum is just pulling performance numbers out of his butt when assigning base classes (which may actually explain a few things just kidding).

 

Skidpad numbers, slalom numbers, etc - basically any method that is used to measure a cars factory handling performance is done on the factory tire types, sizes, etc. So if staggering is an advantage (or disadvantage) it shows up there, and is thusly reflected when that data is used to initially classify a car (unless its some hp:weight deal...?? is it?)

 

This is great source to compare cars: http://fastestlaps.com/

 

I'm sure you know

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IF YOU ARE RUNNING A CAR WITH STAGGERED TIRE SIZES, AND YOU THINK THAT YOU WILL HAVE A PERFORMANCE ADVANTAGE BY RUNNING THEM SQUARE, THEN BY ALL MEANS TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE POINTS THAT THE LARGER TIRE SIZE IS COSTING YOU AND RUN THEM SQUARE. IF NOT, THEN YOU DO HAVE AN ADVANTAGE BY RUNNING THEM STAGGERED, AND THIS DISCUSSION IS STUPID!

 

BTW, I ran my tires staggered for the last half of '08 (FWD--67% front/33% rear balance), and the car was certainly no slower because of it. It would be dumb for me to get any points back on tire size because of it.

 

I can understand those with issues with new rule wording coming out now with questions and comments. I don't understand those that seem to have strong opinions on verbiage and phraseology of rules that have now been published for the third year in a row (after they have been published) without anyone ever saying anything in the past. This thread just gets more annoying by the day.

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