robbodleimages Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Steve, The purpose of my build is more an ala carte thing than a complete package. Its about each individual upgrade. We did Tokico shocks in the Cobra R series and that is definately budget. This time we went to the Moton stuff because they have a new club sport set up that is easier to afford than the stuff you see on Rolex and Grand Am cars. My take also is that the MM gear is no higher than middle of the market with Griggs for sure being more. Interesting that you mention Mr Chris Desalvo. He has more in his engine rebuild than I have in my engine build and he is one of the guys that has said he is considering a move to a less expensive, lower maintanance 351. The next project, if there is one, will be an S197 race car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onralz Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Marty, I don't have any Mustang build costs, but I'd venture to say that I'm over $20,000 not counting consumbables (except transmissions and rearends ). I have done everything myself with the exception of cage/motor/trans/rearend builds and the friend who does it for me is extremely reasonable. I got the car painted for $100 in materials with $25/gal tractor/trailer paint. I have $300 total in shocks/struts on the car, 12" CMC legal brakes that came off ebay from a JY, I still have the 20 year old stock radiator/booster/master cylinder/prop valve, I made the rear suspension out of circle track parts, and the only composite pieces on the car are an ill-fitting hood and a dirt track lexan spoiler. -You could duplicate my 305 for <$2500 carb to oil pan. -The car eats T5s (4 last year) so I finally ponied up for a T10 which would've been cheaper even running JY T5s. -10-bolt JY rear ends like to blow up too. Hopefully, a 9" is in my future. So, for $20,000 you too can own a cobbled together car that you have to work your ass off on that's constantly changing (and finally getting competitive), or you can go out and spend $15,000-$20,000 on a car someone already spent 2-5 times that on that you have to tweak a little bit. Besides, you're starting your build way to late to try to even HPDE this season. I started my build (V6 roller) in August of 2006 and here's how the car looked at my Comp School in April 2007: Yes, that's primer, with a red nose, a black hood, and a power steering pump giving up the ghost with a couple laps before halfway so I had to muscle it past halfway with no power steering to actually get my license. The car is still faster then the driver, because the car doesn't finish to get enough seat time. Out of 10 sprint races I attended this year, I finished 5. Of the 5 races I finished, only 1 was with a transmission that worked properly (had all gears, shifted, etc). My short racing career has been a character builder, but dammit, I have enough character and just want to race now! Thanks TJ for posting a picture of a race car smoking. I thought my car was the only one ever posted smoking. Of course mine was posted for me and in 5.0 magazine.... Man the one time I have a smoky picture and it turns out in national magazine.... I had dinner last month with the guys that posted my picture in 5.0. We actually had a great time laughing about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 A competitive 2V mod motor can be built for less than $7k....all in. Paying other people to do motorwork is CRAZY expensive... How many $20k motors has griggs sold over the years?! Rob, I would like to hear more about that Moton setup so any links would be great. As for the build cost of a top end AI car...I could easily say I have over $70k in mine including $13k value of the car when I stripped it. All the parts work adds up, but it is the 1000's of hours in putting the package together and that is NOT just buying and bolting on parts that never fit anyway! There is an AI legal car here in Dallas, SN95 with full tiger racing body package including available doors for AIX, Full Griggs SLA and cambered rear end, built 347, G-stream wing and full Griggs/Alcon brakes all around. I know for a fact there is WELL over 100k in the car and it was for sale for $35k... Hell, I would probably sell mine for $28k tomorrow if the buyer were standing in the garage with cash in hand... I really want to try a 4th gen camaro! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knapp302 Posted December 23, 2008 Author Share Posted December 23, 2008 Come on guys........ $10k plus for a Ford Racing 4.6L Aluminator by a top engine builder.$4.5k Maximum Motorsports Grip Box $3.5k Moton Suspension Club Sport reserve cannister shocks and struts $2.5k T56 Transmission $3k 13" front brake kit. $1500 for carbon fiber rear wing $1k carbon fiber splitter. My other advice is to get as much seat time as possible if you want to run up front. You can have the trick of the trick of cars but if you can't drive or have no clue how to set a car up your going to get whipped up on by cars with a lot less mods. Come on guys is right! You mean to tell me this series was created to help aftermarket manufacturers sell $1500 carbon fiber rear wings? Are most people in this series really spending $10k on an engine? Even if you only get 400hp from that engine, that would mean you car is going to need to be 3800lbs? I guess I can leave the power windows in, (that was a joke, really) I really agree with the advice of getting lots of seat time and getting the car set-up right. Hopefully the power to weight ratio doesn't change and a light car with good hp can compete. Thanks, Anonymous poster whose name is not Marty (that was only a stage name). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Come on guys........ $10k plus for a Ford Racing 4.6L Aluminator by a top engine builder.$4.5k Maximum Motorsports Grip Box $3.5k Moton Suspension Club Sport reserve cannister shocks and struts $2.5k T56 Transmission $3k 13" front brake kit. $1500 for carbon fiber rear wing $1k carbon fiber splitter. Come on guys is right! You mean to tell me this series was created to help aftermarket manufacturers sell $1500 carbon fiber rear wings? Are most people in this series really spending $10k on an engine? Even if you only get 400hp from that engine, that would mean you car is going to need to be 3800lbs? I guess I can leave the power windows in, (that was a joke, really) Yes, those are reasonable costs listed above for parts that work and last or have already had development time spent on them and that cost is passed through to you. $10k for an engine is NOT unheard of. $2000 for a rear wing and mounts installed is common... Cost in AI CAN be huge when you are working toward a top performing car, hence the reason we are seriously suggesting buying something someone else already put the time and money in to develop. Be VERY prepared to spend $30k on top of the car you have now to run AI in the first 2 years if you do all the work yourself, double that if you have a shop build it. Makes a $25k ready to run car sound like a bargain, doesn't it?! What's even better is if you find a $15k car that needs just a few things and a freshening. If all this scares you a little bit, there is always CMC2 for your car which would basically be a cage and safety equipment and you would be racing as the car sits right now. AI is just that much of a step up with development.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 "Come on guys is right! You mean to tell me this series was created to help aftermarket manufacturers sell $1500 carbon fiber rear wings? Are most people in this series really spending $10k on an engine? Even if you only get 400hp from that engine, that would mean you car is going to need to be 3800lbs? I guess I can leave the power windows in, (that was a joke, really) I really agree with the advice of getting lots of seat time and getting the car set-up right. Hopefully the power to weight ratio doesn't change and a light car with good hp can compete." 1. Its all about how important it is for you to go fast. The more you want to squeeze out of an existing package the more it costs to get a little bit faster. The Tiger racing body kit mentioned above is $$$. A lot more than just spending on a wing. You have to understand that AI has a very open rules set. Anyone willing to take full advantage of it can build a really hot car, but that willingness means a deep pocket. 2. My engine will be 400-425hp. That should get me around 350 at the wheels. Do the math on the 9.5 to 1 ration and its closer to 3400lbs. 3. If you are new to racing, how will you know if the set up is right? How will you know if the car is loose or if its your driving? I bought a sorted out car and so when it was loose I knew that it was mostly my driving making it that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Thanks TJ for posting a picture of a race car smoking. I thought my car was the only one ever posted smoking. Of course mine was posted for me and in 5.0 magazine.... Man the one time I have a smoky picture and it turns out in national magazine....I had dinner last month with the guys that posted my picture in 5.0. We actually had a great time laughing about it. No problem, Mark. At the next race after that, the 350 TPI motor lost ring seal and started pushing oil out all over the headers. I wish I had pics of that as it had to be more spectacular since I had smoke in the car. Marty: Don't let all these guys fool you that you can't low-buck it in this series. There is a price to pay though. While all of them are celebrating a good day of racing, you may or may not be trying to fix the car that broke in the race. My car is getting faster and I finally won my first race at the end of last season then was battling hard with the Dave Algozine (3rd at Nationals) the next day. So, you don't need carbon fiber, lexan, $10k motors, $3k brakes, etc, but it adds to reliability, which makes for a lot more fun when you can drive it off the track at the end of a race instead of coming back on the hook. Spending on good parts won't always prevent the hook, but it sure seems to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edhunter Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Hey Knapp, I can identify with you... I built a FFR 3 years ago, loved the build process. Took it to Summit Point for HPDE with Nasa, got hooked on the thrill factor. Decided I wanted to keep learning on the track, but didn't want to risk the car while "learning" how to drive. Plus I wanted something with a bit more protection. Found and bought a 1989 mustang that was built to AI specs. Found it on cornercarvers.com. Paid 4500 for it sight unseen. Was advertised as a running, driving 89 with SN95 suspension, stock 302, stock T5, cobra SN95 rear with 3.27 gears. SN95 brakes. Full cage, fire system, gutted interior. Got the car home, found it had a busted block but still ran, which wasn't too big of a problem as I had a nice little 306 sitting on a stand. I totally disassembled the car, every nut/bolt that could be removed was. Cut out the fuel tank, added an ATL fuel cell primarily 'cause I had it. Seam welded what I could. Put a EVM 3 link in, MM K-member/LCA's/Strut brace in the front. Welded extra bars in the cage to make it safer/stronger, added gussets to tie it into the chassis better, replaced the rear LCA's with the old ones off my FFR, MM panhard bar, new brake lines, rewired the car (simple because its' carbed), and picked up some used Bilstein front struts w/ MM coilovers and 425lb springs, and rear Koni DA shocks w/ MM coilovers and 350lb springs. Repaint, etc, etc... So basically I rebuilt the entire car using good used parts when I could find them. Oh yeah, I had two Kirkey RR intermed. seats that I'd taken out of the FFR, those went in as well. With the mods, the new 306, what I spend on parts, etc., I figured I have about 12k in the car. The car weighs 2880 wet, and while I haven't dyno'ed the 306, I figure its probably somewhere in the legal HP/Torque requirements for my weight. The only thing I know of keeping this car from a current logbook is the fuelcell bladder is out of date... the cell looks perfect, but it's old. This doesn't bother me as I'm not racing, nor plan to in the near future, but at least I've got a good car that is safe, handles well, the instructors feel safe in, and is plenty fast enough for me right now! Still running the V700 tires that came with the car.. Bought the car last Feb, my first track event was at VIR in July. That's when I found 2nd gear was bad in the tranny, so buying a used car is not without it's headaches... but I'd do it again, and feel like it's the best way to "build" a racecar from scratch, with all the expenses of doing so... Currently car is in state of disassembly, plan to install the torsen rear I picked up 2 years ago and replace the gears to 3.73's. I also rebuilt the tranny, added a .83 5th gear. Good luck, have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raybob9289 Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Marty, I agree with Nape. But I run a GM like him so we don't have to spend as much $$$. LOL I don't think my budy Tommy has 25K in his Firebird and its really competitive. my .02 cents BTW, is Burnets s197 a mod motor or old school 302 ???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizlbits Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Robins car is a 351. It must be a slow economy or something with all the chatter in this thread...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Robins car is a 351. It must be a slow economy or something with all the chatter in this thread...... Crappy weather. It's been so cold and icy, that they shut the job down for the whole week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raznkane Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 This is a great thread!! I have been watching from the start as I am doing the same thing Marty is, yep... Thats right.. another one. Thanks to all you racers in AI, your knowledge and experience runs very deep. You also provide some of the best W2W action going. And thanks unknown guy for starting this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onralz Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 When is Chris going to add a picture from this years driving experience? Last year he entertained us with his attempt at snow plowing snow up to the windshield in Sue's M3. Waiting....... That would be far more entertaining than giving people real world numbers of what it takes to build one of these things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizlbits Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=20301 Refresher of wife's 335 BMW from last year. Ernesto had an idea of a new stategy. Here it is in practice. Smokescreen I might have to try this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micks 41 Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 There you have it, 1407hp is to much power. AIX power cap will be set a 1350. Looks like I'll be detuning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Corkran Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 Not too much, but enough. That seems to perfectly illustrate Mark Donohue's definition of "enough" power - it can spin the tires to the end of the straightaway in top gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RACER-X Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 Hi,I have decided to build an AI car from a stock 1996 Mustang Cobra. Before everyone pipes in about how I should buy one already done (I know, I know), I enjoy the build process as much as the driving. I am very particular too and would probably end up re-doing most of a car I would buy anyhow. I just finished building a Factory Five Cobra with my father, so I feel confident I can get a AI car built correctly with some help from fellow racers and suppliers. I am looking for advice from people who have built AI cars on what to watch out for and what works and what doesn't. I would really like to find someone in the Western NY area that actually owns one and has driven in the series. Please email me at [email protected] if you would be willing to chat on the phone and let me ask some questions. I plan on attending an event or two this year, but I would really like to see a car in person sooner. I have been reading the NASA and AI rules (about a 100 times) and doing a lot of research, but still have some initial questions. 1. For this year car, what has been the typical Roll cage, 8 point, 10 point ? Any suggestions for a supplier that is familiar with the NASA requirements? 2. I lean toward removing the ABS system, but should I? 3. What is a typical cost for a race weekend (not including lodging and gas). How much are entry fees and how long do tires and brakes typically last? (probably better to ask how many sets of brake pads do you go through in a weekend) 4. I would like to go with a fuel cell, but how many gallons would I need and are there any reasonably priced options out there? Thanks in advance, Marty Anyone need some stock 96 Mustang interior? haha Lots of good advice so far but let me throw my .02 in. Now I'm not sure of how much track time you have under your belt but that is a must before you go W2W. Take your car and start the HPDE ladder. Get into TT and develope your car for AI there. You can build it your self and take your time while having plenty of track time. You can see and talk to the AI guys and see first hand whats working and whats not. When your all done building, get your comp license and join the fun. Most of all enjoy yourself and don't hurry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
performancedriven Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Let me put in my .02. Many people like to go through the development of a car. Plus you can buy someone else's mistakes as well as their successes. If someone wants to build their own car, giving them advice as to where to start would be better than just saying buy one built. There are advantages both ways. The question that really needs to be asked is, what is the starting budget for the car. At my shop we like to sit down and go through the customers expectations and budget. From that we put together a plan to get the best bang for their buck. We also try to help them understand operating budgets that they will need for each race. I also have customers with shells and partially started projects that they are looking to get rid of. We try to hook up our customers with project cars that we know of with customers looking for a project. I really prefer to start with a body in white or shell that has already been stripped. There are plenty of them out there. I have been able to find project drag car rollers really cheap. Many times they are stipped shells without drivetrain. Just keep in mind that the chance of any part of a cage in a drag car being legal for road racing is slim and none! So if it was a drag car project it is not likely that you will be able to reuse any part of the cage. Many drag race cages use ERW tube not DOM. Also the design requirements are completely different. Keep in mind you are really just getting a shell to start with so keep that in mind regarding the $ you spend for a shell. It is common for someone to want to build one class of car and realize they do not have the budget for that class. That is why I like to go over those details with people. It is really disappointing to spend all your money building a car to only have it sit in the garage because you cannot afford to take it to the track. Brian Gard Performance Driven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 That's why CMC is a great class. There is nothing you would do to a CMC car that would prevent you from later upgrading to AI and you can have it on track for a quarter of the cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucebyerly Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 That's why CMC is a great class. There is nothing you would do to a CMC car that would prevent you from later upgrading to AI and you can have it on track for a quarter of the cost. Now there's a fine solicitation right there folks. I agree though. It's a fantastic class. Hard to believe there is not one single CMC car running in Florida yet. With all the clapped out 5 oh's down here, it really surprised me. Rather than being the first, I went the 400% more expensive route Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knapp302 Posted January 1, 2009 Author Share Posted January 1, 2009 Let me put in my .02.If someone wants to build their own car, giving them advice as to where to start would be better than just saying buy one built. Thanks Brian. I started this post for exatly that reason. I was hoping to get some advice (and I did), not start a discussion as to whether or not I should build one. I went over my reasons for building a car a couple times in this post, so I won't do it again, but what I will say is that I am not in a hurry, I know how much it is going to cost to do it right and I would build it to run CMC if there were more CMC events in my area. I really love Watkins Glen and I am only 1.5 hours away from it, but no CMC races there. I won't be the guy buying $3,000 brake set-ups or $10,000 engines, but I think a good driver can compete and have fun without all that. I hope to be that guy. I have enjoyed the witty discussion and appreciate the help. I hope to attend the Mid-Ohio race this year and meet some of you. Hopefully by then you will have forgotten my name Marty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diller Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 This thread has been quite an eye opener on how many people recommend buying over building. I kinda wish I had that advice before I got shoulder deep into my build. I am going outside the box and building a V6 Mustang to...um...compete. I figure I might as well go ahead and finish the project because it's too late to turn back into a street car and not far enough to sell it as a race car. Good advice though from those that have given. I guess there have to be a few of us dumb enough to keep adding AI cars to circulation I can see the whole build being like my first roll cage project. Was a lot of fun to do once but I never want to do it again. I can see this as being my last race car build from scratch. -Diller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holster Maker Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Welcome and Good Luck. What region will you be in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diller Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Welcome and Good Luck.What region will you be in? Thank you. At the moment it looks to be the Southeast. I live in Tennessee so there are a lot of tracks within range. The car started out with just some Steeda Sport springs and some Tokico HP shocks. After a year or so of tracking the car with that setup, the go-fast-crack-pipe bit way to hard to stop. After a few years of DE's, this started happening and that lead me to put more and more money toward that crack pipe: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/greensteeda/Racing/DSC_0258.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knapp302 Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 What region will you be in? I expect to be in the Northeast and/or Great lakes region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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