Help please - how to build or buy a "civilized" HPDE Mustang

[NVR2L8]

OK guys, the decision has been made (see previous thread), and I will either buy or build a late model Mustang for my son to drive in HPDE events

 

The deciding factors:

 

1. Popularity and styling of the Mustang marquee.

2. Good platform to start out and grow with.

3. Numerous classes in which to run in (eventually).

4. Good reliability, and local shops to help with maintenance.

5. Good availability and cost of parts and consumables.

6. Reasonable cost of donor car ('05 GT, 4.6L, $10-12K).

7. Roomy enough to handle large drivers and instructors.

 

A lot of other good options, but this is the right choice for me and my son.

 

I want to take the base car and make it as safe as possible, add selective upgrades to improve HPDE performance (safety, not lap times), and still maintain street driveability.

 

I need help to make good decisions before getting started.

 

So far, my ideas for upgrades:

 

1. 4 point roll bar for harnesses.

2. Racing seats to accomodate large occupants. Adjustable on sliders.

3. Racing belts, but maintaining stock restraint and airbag system.

4. Fire suppression system.

5. Larger brakes, braided lines, ducting to cool brakes, pads, fluid, etc.

6. Suspension upgrade. Need help here, but the goal is to improve the stiffness, handling and forgiveness.

7. Other suggestions are welcome.

 

I am not really interested in any engine upgrades at this point. I don't even think that any intake system or exhaust upgrades are necessary. Certainly not looking to do any heads and cam work.

 

I would love to find a turnkey car like this already built, but only if it is in excellent condition. I would even allow for some extras. I do not want somebody else's problems. I also don't think I would be interested in a retired school car unless I could really find something special.

 

I have talked to a couple of high end shops, but their cars are just too high performance for my needs, and I just cannot justify the expense.

 

What I need is a basic entry level HPDE / road car that is safe, easy to drive, fun and reliable.

 

I would love to hear suggestions on the best upgrades, mainly brakes, suspension, seats, etc.

 

Thanks very much for all your help. This forum is a great place to learn.

[badass55]

leave it stock for HPDE's, get some good break pads and a tire with about a 200-300 tread wear (they will give up more feed back and you will learn faster at and $$$). The seat, cage and harness is up to you, but when you first start will be way under the limits of the car. as far as seats, go to some events look around and see what people both your size and your son's are using, they might let you do a sit test.

 

most instructor would like to have you learn in a stock form car with no upgrades, because they car tell if the mistake is driver error and not the car.

[TurboShortBus]

As an example, here is how I "built" my 2004 Mustang GT for HPDE use after crashing my POS 1986 Mustang SVO in HPDE-1. I initially wanted to progress through HPDE and into the Camaro-Mustang Challenge class, but I'm in Time Trial now, and I am having a blast so far. Maybe I'll go to CMC in 2010, maybe not, maybe I won't even have a job in 6 months...

 

2004 Mustang GT, bone stock, came with a K&N filter and Flowbastid mufflers

255/50-16 Toyo Proxes RA-1 tires (spec tire for CMC; I probably shouldn't have gone this route, though)

Tokico D-Spec shocks and struts (got them new and cheap)

Typical CMC spring setup

Steeda bumpsteer kit (new and cheap)

Steeda caster/camber plates (also new and cheap)

Ultrashield Pro Road Race driver's seat

Kirkey el cheapo seat of some sort for passenger

All interior not contained inside the dashboard removed

Airbags removed and sold

 

While I don't drive the car on the street, it's still not far off from its former life of a daily driver; it still has the stock catalytic converters in place, the AC still works (handy when the windshield fogs up in the rain, etc.). I haven't installed a roll cage or harnesses yet, but they are on the radar.

 

Mark

Edited January 27, 2009 by Guest

[kbrew8991]

I have no idea of your situation - no offense meant - but you should NEVER put it on track if you can't afford to just as easily push it off a cliff and laugh about it. Thats why in the other thread we were pushing towards older cars as they're cheap to walk away from and/or replace if necessary.

 

There are other things to be learned by having a momentum car that will make you a faster DRIVER sooner, I would not consider the car you're talking about in that category. When your only option to be fast around the track is to nail the corners (vs your right foot) and when a mid-corner bobble kills you down the next straight you very quickly learn what works for how you like to drive Then transferring over to a horsepower car, you've only got to learn a bit of throttle modulation and you're going to outrun alot of people at the same power level because they never bothered to learn how to get that last 1% from a corner and you did

 

I would also stay away from getting heavy on the mods, and the big brake kit especially is probably overkill - 95% of the cars made today will last through a session with ease by simply replacing the pads with something intended for track use and replacing the fluid with stuff that boils at ~600* or higher.

 

Safety is up to your worries, budget, etc - no one will fault you for going to the nines there.

[NVR2L8]

I have no idea of your situation - no offense meant - but you should NEVER put it on track if you can't afford to just as easily push it off a cliff and laugh about it. Thats why in the other thread we were pushing towards older cars as they're cheap to walk away from and/or replace if necessary.

 

There are other things to be learned by having a momentum car that will make you a faster DRIVER sooner, I would not consider the car you're talking about in that category. When your only option to be fast around the track is to nail the corners (vs your right foot) and when a mid-corner bobble kills you down the next straight you very quickly learn what works for how you like to drive Then transferring over to a horsepower car, you've only got to learn a bit of throttle modulation and you're going to outrun alot of people at the same power level because they never bothered to learn how to get that last 1% from a corner and you did

 

I would also stay away from getting heavy on the mods, and the big brake kit especially is probably overkill - 95% of the cars made today will last through a session with ease by simply replacing the pads with something intended for track use and replacing the fluid with stuff that boils at ~600* or higher.

 

Safety is up to your worries, budget, etc - no one will fault you for going to the nines there.

 

No offense taken. Your points are all well taken. But one of the requirements that I did not mention is that the Mustang will also be driven by several of my buddies (brother, and middle age crazy types). My son will only be driving during his summer vacation. I intend to take my buddies with me to about a dozen track days.

 

As for "drving it off a cliff", I have already faced those "demons" in my mind and accepted the reality. My personal track car is a highly modified 2009 Corvette Z06. Every day I pull onto the track, I am prepared to walk away from $100K. Don't expect me to laugh about it, but it won't change my life. In comparison, the Mustang is relatively inexpensive.

 

Regarding the high HP, my son has learned to drive in a MN6 Corvette, and he and I will be going to the Spring Mountain driving school in March, driving Corvettes. I considered letting him drive my '02 Corvette coupe in HPDE events, but it was built as a "show car", and I just can't see abusing it at the track. Plus, Corvette consumables (tires, brakes) are way too expensive.

 

All said, safety is still a very high priority. The roll bar, seats, etc. are essential IMO for safety. Any suspension mods or brake upgrades will only be done if someone convinces me that they will make the car safer, NOT FASTER. So the question I ask: Will bigger brakes and better suspension make the car safer?

 

My personal driving is strictly recreational, and I do not ever expect to get past HPDE-3. As for my son, only time will tell.

 

Thanks to all for the advice.

[soundguydave]

Welcome to the world of the S197 chassis Mustang, it's a whole different animal than the previous generations...

 

While you can go whole hog and build a true racecar out of one of them, there are really only a few "critical" things that need to be done to put one out on the track and have fun with it.

 

First, the brakes. The stock calipers and rotors are perfectly fine, dump the fluid for some Motul RBF600, and get real pads. I use Carbotech XP12 up front, and XP10 in back, and have had quite good success with them. Ducts are nice, but not necessarily critical, and of the braided lines out there, I have yet to see anything better than the Steeda set.

 

Next, suspension: Don't go nuts here, until you really just push the limits of what the car can do, but you will want to replace the rear lower control arms straight off. The stockers use very soft bushings to control NVH (noise, vibration, harshness), and they feel like noodles when you push the car, and will result in snap oversteer quite easily. Ditto for the Panhard bar. If the car is going to see significant street usage, go with poly bushings all the way around, but if it's a track toy, go for rod ends. Dampers/springs/swaybars are up to you, but the stockers will work for you for a while. If you anticipate going into TT or AI with the car, take a hard look at the coilover packages that are out there, and download a FR500S "parts list" from Ford Racing for a guide as to what STOCK parts are good to run and which aren't. If you want to lower the ride height by more than an inch, though, be prepared for a major suspension overhaul.

 

Safety: While this is certainly all up to you, a simple rollbar, good racing seats, and harnesses would not be out of line. Just realize that you will run into headaches getting them to play nicely with the electronics in the car. For example, there is a driver's side position sensor, and a passenger side pressure bladder that you will have to work with to get it to interface with the airbag system. IMO, if you're running properly installed seats (double-lock tracks, and a pinned seat-back brace) and five or six point harnesses, you can just disable the airbags and not suffer in the safety department. A fire bottle is never a bad idea. Don't worry about a fuel cell, though, the "saddlebag" tank is actually quite sturdy and well protected.

 

Engine/drivetrain: The FR500S uses a stock engine assembly with a cold air intake and tuning, and that is what I would shoot for if I were you. The 4.6L-3V is a complete drive-by-wire engine, and from the factory, the throttle response is terrible. A quick flash-tune can and will remap the throttle response, fuel maps, spark maps, and make the engine so much more drivable and responsive that it's nearly a sin not to do a tune. The tuner "interface" will run you around $350-$400, and different tunes (octane changes, altitude, responsiveness, etc.) are priced as low as $25 from reputable "mail order" vendors. With a little investigation, you'll see exactly how much can be changed with the tune, and it's eye opening... Other than that, the trans is generally quite serviceable, as is the differential. You may want to consider upping the final drive to around 3.73:1 though. The Modular motors love to rev. Power comes on at around 3200RPM, and it pulls hard all the way up to the mid 6000 rpm band. You will want to put "real" gauges in, though. The stock pieces are idiot lights with needles, nothing more.

[NVR2L8]

Welcome to the world of the S197 chassis Mustang, it's a whole different animal than the previous generations...

 

While you can go whole hog and build a true racecar out of one of them, there are really only a few "critical" things that need to be done to put one out on the track and have fun with it.

 

Great info, now we are getting somewhere!

 

Questions: What is the recommended amount to lower for track days? Is it the 1" you mentioned?

 

Is the "Bullitt" suspension an improvement over the stock GT suspension? I have seen one for sale (used) for $300.

 

Thanks

[almost heaven]

+1 for SoundGuyDave !

 

I found swaybar upgrades and heavier springs a big help in getting my stang to a neutral, happy place for HPDE and autox. I like the Steeda gear, personally. 255 mm tires on the stock wheels are nice, too; I can't recall if you can fit 275's on them (not paying attention to that since my plan is to use 295 tires on 10 inch wheels for autox, c-prepared).

 

I saw more accidents in HPDE and TT than I wanted to last season. Either for no preventable reason, or for a reason that I could see myself easily falling into. So, I'm big on safety gear now, even for HPDE. For me, that means a good seat and mounts, HANS-type device, AND nets on both sides.

 

Good luck!

[almost heaven]

The "Bullit" suspension includes some of the FRPP items; it is a step up from the stock GT. It's best to try and make all mods in one area from a single source (e.g., FRPP or Steeda or Maximum Motorsports or Eibach, etc.); they will tend to complement rather than conflict with each other.

[soundguydave]

The "Bullit" suspension includes some of the FRPP items; it is a step up from the stock GT. It's best to try and make all mods in one area from a single source (e.g., FRPP or Steeda or Maximum Motorsports or Eibach, etc.); they will tend to complement rather than conflict with each other.

 

Agreed. A quite good package is the FRPP handling pack. Springs, dampers, bars, and a strut tower brace, and you have the underpinnings of a Shelby GT... There are other good packages out there, but I would suggest finding a vendor that knows what they're doing and stick with them. For me, it's a combination of Steeda and Maximum Motorsports. The issue with greater drops than 1" is that the suspension geometry is badly compromised. in the front, the roll center is shot to the moon, and in the rear, the anti-squat % and IC points are shifted all the wrong way. It's all correctable, if you want to throw the parts at it. Front: bumpsteer tie rod ends, Steeda X5 ball joint or relocating the front control arm mount points, plus camber plates. In back, adjustable upper and lower control arms, and lower control arm relocation brackets will get the job done.

 

If I were you, however, I would look into the future, and figure out where you want to be in a year, or two, or three, or five. If you're shooting for American Iron, then skip the handling pack and go directly to coil-overs or the Griggs GR40 suspension setups. If you're heading for CMC, then all those parts are illegal, and you have to stick with traditional struts. If you're heading for TT, then get out the points list, figure out where you want to spend them, and use the rulebook as a guide. For the S197 chassis, concentrate first on rubber, then dampers and springs, THEN the rest of the stuff. In TT there is no points difference between the FRPP strut and a Koni DA coilover, so...

 

The car is fun in stock form, but just a few, well selected parts will really make it come alive without getting squirelly. Especially for novice drivers, don't worry too much about dialing out all the understeer in the car, but worry about minimizing the "Mustang snap" that can take your car from you in a heartbeat. It's simple: aftermarket LCAs (or at least the GT500 LCAs), and a flash tune so that you can actually USE the throttle to balance the car.

 

I came at this hobby kind of sideways... Started as a drag guy, with a drag suspension and all the bolt-on motor mods in the world, and started playing catch-up with suspension (plenty of broken parts) and rubber. Now that I'm in HPDE-3, I think I'm finally ready to start dumping the understeer and get real rubber under the car.

[TurboShortBus]

Started as a drag guy, with a drag suspension ... I think I'm finally ready to start dumping the understeer and get real rubber under the car.

Yeah...you should probably take the 15x4 Welds off the front! lol

 

Mark

[Trevor57]

upgrading the brakes is not going to get you anything. stock rotors, with good pads, and fluid are fine with the stock power.

 

Also, I beg to differ about the cost of consumables, the tires are fat, and the car is heavy. Of the 10 or so track cars I have owned, this is the most expensive to keep on the track. It's also not the fastest.

[FlyingDog]

I'm surprised nobody has pointed out by now that the S197 fly by wire throttle sucks! Get a 2004 or earlier.

[TurboShortBus]

I'm surprised nobody has pointed out by now that the S197 fly by wire throttle sucks! Get a 2004 or earlier.

Engine/drivetrain: The FR500S uses a stock engine assembly with a cold air intake and tuning, and that is what I would shoot for if I were you. The 4.6L-3V is a complete drive-by-wire engine, and from the factory, the throttle response is terrible. A quick flash-tune can and will remap the throttle response, fuel maps, spark maps, and make the engine so much more drivable and responsive that it's nearly a sin not to do a tune.

Mark

[soundguydave]

Started as a drag guy, with a drag suspension ... I think I'm finally ready to start dumping the understeer and get real rubber under the car.

Yeah...you should probably take the 15x4 Welds off the front! lol

 

Mark

 

LOL! Now THAT'S funny! No Weld wheels, but it's time for R-comps, probably on GT500 wheels. The aftermarket lightweight ones are just way too spendy for me right now... Managed to wreck a set of Nitto 555 tires in 11 track days. Well, it should probably be twelve, given the extra distance I drove trying to hunt for the line...

[TurboShortBus]

Managed to wreck a set of Nitto 555 tires in 11 track days.

My RA1s have about 12 track days on them, and they probably only have about 2-4 days left on them, depending on the track. That's how it goes!

 

Mark

[FlyingDog]

I'm surprised nobody has pointed out by now that the S197 fly by wire throttle sucks! Get a 2004 or earlier.

Engine/drivetrain: The FR500S uses a stock engine assembly with a cold air intake and tuning, and that is what I would shoot for if I were you. The 4.6L-3V is a complete drive-by-wire engine, and from the factory, the throttle response is terrible. A quick flash-tune can and will remap the throttle response, fuel maps, spark maps, and make the engine so much more drivable and responsive that it's nearly a sin not to do a tune.

Mark

Yeah, I skimmed past that. Programming masks the problem. It does not fix it. The throttle sensor can be improved by disassembling it, but that is hit or miss.

[soundguydave]

I'm surprised nobody has pointed out by now that the S197 fly by wire throttle sucks! Get a 2004 or earlier.

Engine/drivetrain: The FR500S uses a stock engine assembly with a cold air intake and tuning, and that is what I would shoot for if I were you. The 4.6L-3V is a complete drive-by-wire engine, and from the factory, the throttle response is terrible. A quick flash-tune can and will remap the throttle response, fuel maps, spark maps, and make the engine so much more drivable and responsive that it's nearly a sin not to do a tune.

Mark

Yeah, I skimmed past that. Programming masks the problem. It does not fix it. The throttle sensor can be improved by disassembling it, but that is hit or miss.

 

That's a known dead-spot issue transitioning to off-idle. The problem is that on SOME of the cars, the wipers on the potentiometer sit off the conductive grid in the idle position, leading to some motion of the pedal without corresponding change in sensor voltage, and is an easy fix if that's the problem. The issue that I was referring to is the "mushy" response of the engine compared to the pedal input, and is purely a tuning issue. I'm not saying that the fly-by-wire throttle is the best thing since sliced bread, but it also allows for the elimination of the IAC system, since the computer handles that by altering the main throttle-body blades. There is just so much more tunability to the 3V than the 2V or 4V, that you have to have a good tuner on speed dial if you really want to maximize it. This is a LOOOOONNNNGGGG way from carb jets, power valves, and reading mixture off the plugs.

 

The other side of things to look at is how much better the chassis is of the S197 in comparison to the New Edge. 3-link rear, better camber gain on the front, and a MUCH stiffer frame assembly. No subframe connectors required, and minimal cage bracing for chassis rigidity. It really is a whole different car from the previous generations. If you don't like the motor, or the fly-by-wire, just do what a certain AI champ did: Drop in a 351W and call it a day...

 

I know the motor swap would be illegal for CMC, but have they opened up the computer for tuning yet?

[jason]

Upgrade the brakes for safety and longevity($$). SS lines and high temp fluid for safety and cooling ducts to help with pad/rotor life.

[FlyingDog]

I know the motor swap would be illegal for CMC, but have they opened up the computer for tuning yet?

Nope. They're going backwards faster than they're going forwards...