Rules clarification: stitch welding

[ekim952522000]

There seems to be some confusion about if stitch welding the unibody is legal or not how would someone go about getting a official answer on this?

[Zook]

I could swear that this has been discussed here before. I'm sure we'll get this clarified well before nationals.

[slammed_93_hatch]

i don't have the old rules saved, but i remember there was at one point a specific allowance for "seam welding". It was removed in 05, i think.

 

The rule in which people currently use to "justify" the legality is a miss-interpretation. It is clearly speaking toward the roll cage tubing and gusseting

[ekim952522000]

According to this thread viewtopic.php?f=11&t=18989&hilit=seam+welding

 

Reply to original question received. See below:

 

I checked on this for you and it is not legal at this time and to our knowledge never was. There is a rule in the book that allows you to "seam weld" parts of the roll cage to the chassis, but you CAN'T however seam weld the entire chassis.

 

Hope that answers your question for ya.

 

Thanks,

Jeremy

 

Does anyone have a copy of a old rule book proving it was once legal I do not remember it ever being legal.

 

edit: fixed link

Edited January 28, 2009 by Guest

[Jeremy C.]

The way the rule is currently written regarding seam welding, it's gray area!

 

The rules committee can give you opinion, but they can't however say for sure if a rule is or isn't a certain way.

They can provide guidance for their interpretation of a rule, but that is all.

 

It has been discussed and talked about and there are points to be made for legal and illegal!

 

You may proceed at your own discretion.

If you'd like an official rule clarification, I believe that would be best handled with a rules request!

[slammed_93_hatch]

The way the rule is currently written regarding seam welding, it's gray area!

 

 

Again i am not huge on the English language but how is it a gray area?

 

 

Your taking the term seam welding, which is even in quotes, which typically denotes that the word should not be taken in its literal terms, out of a sentence that is ONLY TALKING about attaching tubes to the chassis.

 

Section 4.9, which this is under, is labeled as "Roll Cage".

 

 

You can't remove a single term from its context, and then use it completly out of context to justify something as legal.

 

the sentence (seam welding) is in is a verb (action word) and the noun is tube. That means that the verb word (seam welding) is acting upon the noun (tube).

[SFerg]

Shouldn't a modification that could render a tub useless if found to be illegal while causing a ton of confusion be given a little more attention by the rules committee?

[slammed_93_hatch]

Shouldn't a modification that could render a tub useless if found to be illegal while causing a ton of confusion be given a little more attention by the rules committee?

 

 

IMO it is pretty Black and White...

 

And is a HUGEEEEEEEEEEEEEE stretch of the an allowance to get seam welding to be legal.

 

The issue has been discuessed before, at length and the consensus has always been that it was not legal...

 

But many of us remember something about it being legal at one point or some reason 04/05 sticks out to me

[Zook]

Shouldn't a modification that could render a tub useless if found to be illegal while causing a ton of confusion be given a little more attention by the rules committee?

 

And if I were building a racecar and read that, I would of looked for more clarification before I started stitch welding. Knowing that it could bea possible "gray area" that could swing either way, I think I would hesitate before starting that project.

 

How much of a performance advantage can stitch welding yeild?

[AMorgan]

I hate to bump this topic as a noob, but reading over the rule addendum on 1/30/09, it sounds like this may now be a legal modification, or I could be totally misinterpretting what was written there. From the reading it sounds like the rule was expressly rewritten to allow for stitch welding, assuming you take on the 30 pound weight penalty. Is this a correct interpretation?

[slammed_93_hatch]

I hate to bump this topic as a noob, but reading over the rule addendum on 1/30/09, it sounds like this may now be a legal modification, or I could be totally misinterpretting what was written there. From the reading it sounds like the rule was expressly rewritten to allow for stitch welding, assuming you take on the 30 pound weight penalty. Is this a correct interpretation?

 

 

correct

[PSUCRX]

I don't like this one bit, HC is supposed to be affordable race series and when you get people that just go throw money at a car and interpret the rules however they see fit it drives people away from the series and breeds animosity among racers.

 

It's not that if someone seam welds their chassis that I feel cheated, it's the fact that if said person has such disregard for the 'spirit' of the rules, what else on their car may be 'stretching' the rules?

 

So if Nationals come and this hasn't been solved or clarification been made, when my team rolls into Miller to run a fair race in a competitive car, don't be suprised if you see me looking around at other cars, I don't believe in cheating, and I know that in many other series it's almost the norm, but that doesn't by any stretch, make it right.

[jmeris]

don't be suprised if you see me looking around at other cars, I don't believe in cheating, and I know that in many other series it's almost the norm, but that doesn't by any stretch, make it right.

 

I know what you mean, but most people (maybe different in your case) don't have the $1000 cash at nationals to protest another car within 1/2 hour of the conclusion of the race.

 

So don't forget to bring an extra $1000

[DaveWright]

don't be suprised if you see me looking around at other cars, I don't believe in cheating, and I know that in many other series it's almost the norm, but that doesn't by any stretch, make it right.

 

I know what you mean, but most people (maybe different in your case) don't have the $1000 cash at nationals to protest another car within 1/2 hour of the conclusion of the race.

 

So don't forget to bring an extra $1000

I think that the $1000 to protest rule should be removed. All podium cars should be inspected after every race to ensure it is in legal specs. And those caught cheating should be penalized. This way the series will be fair for all and more people will be drawn in rather than pushed away.

[slammed_93_hatch]

don't be suprised if you see me looking around at other cars, I don't believe in cheating, and I know that in many other series it's almost the norm, but that doesn't by any stretch, make it right.

 

I know what you mean, but most people (maybe different in your case) don't have the $1000 cash at nationals to protest another car within 1/2 hour of the conclusion of the race.

 

So don't forget to bring an extra $1000

I think that the $1000 to protest rule should be removed. All podium cars should be inspected after every race to ensure it is in legal specs. And those caught cheating should be penalized. This way the series will be fair for all and more people will be drawn in rather than pushed away.

 

 

i think that the top 3 cars in all classes are inspected for a few items, but beyond that it is up to the competitor.

 

I don't think all protest are $1000, i think the price is comparable to what you are protesting.

 

IE illegal brakes, would be what maybe $100-$200. (and if you win the protest you get your money back).

[jmeris]

i think that the top 3 cars in all classes are inspected for a few items, but beyond that it is up to the competitor.

 

I don't think all protest are $1000, i think the price is comparable to what you are protesting.

 

IE illegal brakes, would be what maybe $100-$200. (and if you win the protest you get your money back).

 

To be honest, I've never seen anyone protest (in HC) at Nationals. $1000 was the talk, but has yet to be confirmed.

 

All podium cars should be inspected after every race to ensure it is in legal specs. And those caught cheating should be penalized. This way the series will be fair for all and more people will be drawn in rather than pushed away.

 

That would be ideal, but it would take too much time to inspect/remove parts of each podium finisher in the inspection area. During the past 3 years at nationals, the inspection area got pretty crowded. Once a championship race ends, cars go to the inspection area and the back up begins.

[slammed_93_hatch]

i think that the top 3 cars in all classes are inspected for a few items, but beyond that it is up to the competitor.

 

I don't think all protest are $1000, i think the price is comparable to what you are protesting.

 

IE illegal brakes, would be what maybe $100-$200. (and if you win the protest you get your money back).

 

To be honest, I've never seen anyone protest (in HC) at Nationals. $1000 was the talk, but has yet to be confirmed.

 

I think for a "engine" protest, for something like wrist pins in a piston $1000 would be right. IIRC the cost of the protest is directly correlated to what you are protesting. And the "fee" is what it would "cost" to have the part inspected at a normal shop. Probably using a system like All-data.

 

MOST protests should not be as intensive as looking to see a wrist pin, (were the oil pan must me dropped, and the head must be pulled).

 

For things like illegal pistons, a bore scope should work. Illegal Rods, simply dropping the pan should work.

 

Now i do realize that things can be done that are illegal and can not be seen with a bored scope or dropping the oil pan.

 

But if you KNOW some one is cheating, and KNOW exactly how they are cheating, then the money will be given back to you after the protest.

[PSUCRX]

I'm just saying I don't care if it gives them an advantage or not, cheating is cheating and shouldn't be tolerated whatsoever. I'm not actually 'racing' at nationals but our team IS making a run for the championship and the car is 100% legal, and if we do well, I'm sure we will be protested, that's just the nature of the game, but to the degree i'm sure everyone in this thread is probably referring, posting up build pictures knowing it will raise questions and then arguing that it's 'ok' will only invoke animosity.

[AMorgan]

The $1000 rule has its purpose (although that may be a bit high, the graduated scale makes the most sense). If you make it free to protest, you'll see a sore loser protest every car ahead of him, not because he actually believes their cheating, but hey, if something is found, free position bump.

 

We dealt with this a lot in RC where it was free to protest (big evens, I think its 50 bucks to protest) Basically there were a group of guys known to cheat. If someone beat them, they protested the car every time and were quite ruthless in finding out if ANYTHING was illegal. There's an old description for a stock motor called cincinnati stock. Essentially it was throwing a 19 turn armature into a 27 turn can. Obviously this was illegal, but a lot of guys ran them. Cheating happens. The key is to make a protest accessible to those who feel they've honestly been cheated out of a fair try at it and keep it exclusive enough that someone can't bankroll a mass protest on a whim (presumably because HE'S cheating and can't understand how a legal car could beat him)

[clock]

Imo, technical stewards should be educated and proactive enough so that protesting is unnecesary. If the sanction doesn't care who wins, then you have to leave it up to those that DO care, unfortunately. In club racing though, rarely is tech staffed well enough to do this for every class.

 

My suggestion in the past is instead of $$, if you protest, the protester must subject themselves to the same inspection or teardown that he is suggesting for the protestee. The teardowns can be observed by a "jury of peers", with the final decision resting with a steward. Anything found during this teardown on either car should be scrutinized.

 

In this way, a race group could take matters into it's own hands a little. This approach would balance the protest fee while also keeping knee jerk protesting in check.

 

If a guy is willing to show you his, and you are not willing to show him yours, there is no reason to think you are not cheating, and then the sanction should be investigating anyway.

 

Down with protest fees...

[slammed_93_hatch]

If a guy is willing to show you his, and you are not willing to show him yours, there is no reason to think you are not cheating, and then the sanction should be investigating anyway.

 

Down with protest fees...

 

 

uhhh what are we talking about again....

[DaveWright]

If a guy is willing to show you his, and you are not willing to show him yours, there is no reason to think you are not cheating, and then the sanction should be investigating anyway.

 

Down with protest fees...

 

 

uhhh what are we talking about again....

LOL!!! Nice Jimmy!