99wildthing Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Wow! Lots of cool advice and stories of peoples’ experience... a good read for sure! And, after reading all the words of wisdom, it got me to pondering my own pending situation. So, here's my story; I'm in HPDE2 and told I’m ready for 3, all my HPDE days have been on street tires (BFG g-force sport specifically) and in two different cars, both Mustangs. I spent most of my time in my 1984 5.0L, which, at the time, had a mostly stock chassis and brakes. And then a couple sessions in my 1994 GT, which is all stock (chassis and brakes). I’ve been sideways through the esses at Thunderhill, tires squealing through the carousel at Sears Point, and even spun the ’84 around in turn 3 at TH. I'm thinking I know where the limit is in both my cars, and have thoroughly enjoyed getting there! Anyhow, my dilemma is this… Over the winter I completed a full Griggs GR40 upgrade on the ’84 (with a Ford Racing M2300 brake upgrade at the same time) and will take it out for its maiden voyage later this month. It weighs less than 3000 pounds with me in it, and is putting out around 300 HP at the tires. I have two new sets of tires to choose from… 245/45-17 BFG g-force sport, or 285/30-18 BFG R1. Okay, with that said, I’m open for any sage advice you all might have on which option I should go with first time out with my new chassis? And, thanks in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 feel the suspension changes out with a tire you're familiar with would be what I'd try Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elvenhome21 Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Like mcm I had 6 years of circle track along with 4 more of karting, and when I switched to road racing I had a bone stock eagle talon with touring bricks on it. I would never suggest anybody run on touring tires because they have so little grip in the first place. I would much rather have gone to fleet farm and got those cheapy fusion tires to throw on. I would think run flats would be a rather hard tire also with the casing being so stiff. But NO for using a racing tire first hand, way to many varibles along with no dstinctive edge of traction, street tires talk to you and let you know whats going on. Racing tires are all or nothing and once you over heat them your done for a lap. you dont want to do this your first time out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 feel the suspension changes out with a tire you're familiar with would be what I'd try I gotta agree with Ken. Damn. Change one thing at a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badass55 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 two words, "BABY STEPS" get the setup close with the street tires then make the move. i would hate to see you put it in the wall after making the changes. you will also know if the change if good or bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99wildthing Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Great advice... thanks, and on par with what I was thinking. Funny thing though; I called John Griggs to get his take, and he recommended running with the R1's, because that's what he set the car up for (with stiffer springs and more aggressive camber/caster, etc.). Now I'm really in a quandary! I have high respect for Griggs, so I'm leaning towards taking his advice (and setup) and just work on breaking her in slowly in group 2. Of course I'll probably change my mind about 10 times between now and the 21st! As always, still open for more input, thoughts, experiences that anyone has to share... thanks again! Happy Racing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleeperlove Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 ^^ the thing with that is that the car will work best on R1s, thats why he recommended them. You aren't going to get the car anywhere near the limit anyway so you won't notice. The R comp way is what will make the car the fastest, but in the hands of a skilled driver. The street tire path will make the driver fast so that he or she can use that car to its maximum speed on race tires down the road. Griggs suggestion is aimed at car performance not driver performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99wildthing Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Hey Jeff... I hear ya man, thanks. Would you suggest keeping the setup dialed in as Griggs has it; but just going with the BFG Sport street tires. That's what I'm leaning towards, and having the R1's with me if I decide I want to feel the difference (realizing of course that I won't be near the limit of the chassis/tire combo with the R1's, where I will likely be at the chassis/tire limit when on the street tires). Please keep the feedback coming folks... just like in the car; paying attention to the feedback (and applying what's learned) will only make me better! It's much appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon62 Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 From a new drivers perspective, I put a set of Kumho Ecsta XS's ( nice street tire ) on a "91 Miata for my track HPDE's. Took the advice of some veterans, some of whom post here. That went along with the "learn to drive a slow car fast" mentality for learning the skills needed. I did upgrade the brake pads and brake lines for stopping and a little stiffer springs, seat and roll bar with harness for safety. I am just now getting to the point where I can feel the tires giving way on some fast sweepers ( and some slower corners if i get a little throttle happy early in the corner ). I spent some time as a passenger in my instructors Miata on R comps and there is definately a difference. Where I was feeling the slide start, the R comp car just let loose and had to be brought back rather quickly. I will get there, but the street tire is allowing me to explore the limits in what I feel ( learn ) is a controlable situation. Each session of each event lets me get a little closer while maintaing control, even then we have had a few "moments"... I would certainly support the road tire for beginning drivers...Glad I listened, I think it has added to my enjoyment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itarin Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I am really shocked anyone has recommended R-Comp tires for a first timer...are there any driving instructors who agree with this thought? The advantage of a street tire the fisrt few times out is the audible message it sends the driver...we are slipping and/or loosing grip...R-Comp goes chirp, WHAT??...CODE BROWN! Great, now I have to get 6lbs of sand out of the dash not to mention get new undershorts. Lot's of people get on R-comps early and get to confident with the grip. Then they loose it in a corner and can't respond fast enough to correct it. Just my two cents...but in this economy it's like worth a dollar or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 The advantage of a street tire the fisrt few times out is the audible message it sends the driver...we are slipping and/or loosing grip...FWIW, Toyo Proxes RA1s love to squeal and howl long before they let go. You can hear me coming 3 turns away... Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kittiz Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 I am going to be doing my 1st HPDE event, too. I have been autoXing for about 3 years, mostly in stock on R-comps with an NB Miata. I did one Streets event a few years ago when I had a WRX. In SCCA Solo 2, we are now running the car in a Street tire class, so I have Dunlop Direzza's I could use -- or I also have some Kumho V710s from last year that I would like the opportunity to use up (I want to sell a couple of sets of stock rims). I don't think it will be a problem for me to use the V710s but wanted some feedback from you guys. I understand very well how they break, however, I don't expect to be reaching the same limits here as I do in autoX... What do you think about me using the R-comps in this situation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Kittiz, You'll be fine on 710s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleeperlove Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 I am going to be doing my 1st HPDE event, too. I have been autoXing for about 3 years, mostly in stock on R-comps with an NB Miata. I did one Streets event a few years ago when I had a WRX. In SCCA Solo 2, we are now running the car in a Street tire class, so I have Dunlop Direzza's I could use -- or I also have some Kumho V710s from last year that I would like the opportunity to use up (I want to sell a couple of sets of stock rims). I don't think it will be a problem for me to use the V710s but wanted some feedback from you guys. I understand very well how they break, however, I don't expect to be reaching the same limits here as I do in autoX... What do you think about me using the R-comps in this situation? You might be ok, but a good autocrosser does not necessarily a good road racer make[yoda] I'd still go at least the first time with the Direzzas because it is a far different environment than an autocross. You can't jerk the car around and come out alive like you can do in autocross. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_Wolfe Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 You might be ok, but a good autocrosser does not necessarily a good road racer make[yoda] I'd still go at least the first time with the Direzzas because it is a far different environment than an autocross. You can't jerk the car around and come out alive like you can do in autocross. Absolutely agree! I started autocrossing and had to unlearn trail braking to the apex of every corner. Trail braking is fine for slow corners, but fast sweepers you want to get the braking done early and get to throttle early. At turn in for a front wheel drive car like I drive. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 I disagree, but that horse has been beaten to death here many times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbright007 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Used to be that there was a "right way" to come thru DE and a "wrong way". The right way was to learn to drive a car to its capabilities - without changing the car so much that it handled that for you. Bravo for upgrades in technology! But the guys that learned on street tires, without abs, traction control, etc are still the fastest at the end of the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formula87 Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 ^^^^^ what he said..................... I used the crappiest Hankook street tires for my first three or four weekends. I was told by literally everyone to save my money while in HPDE 1. street tires first couple times out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmaddox Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 A couple of other questions from a rookie.....do you consider the Hoosier A6 or R6 an R compound tire? I believe they are, although I thought they were similar to the kuhmo 710s....maybe I am thinking of the 700s. Anyway, another dumb question, is an HPDE day the same as MidOhio's lapping program? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 every tire you mentioned is a DOT approved race tire (aka R-comp). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmaddox Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Thanks....anyone want to weigh in on whether a HPDE day the same as MidOhio's lapping program? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99wildthing Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Well, I have to admit I went against most of the advice I got on this forum, and went with my gut (which was to go with the advice I got from Griggs to run with the R1s). As a reminder; these were my first sessions out since the Griggs chassis upgrade performed over the winter, and I was debating whether to go with BFG g-force or R1 tires. All my previous experience (in this car) had been on the g-force tires. My logic for going with the R1s was mainly because I knew (and kept telling myself) I wasn't going to do anything crazy (running random lines, overdriving, etc.), and just focus on running smooth, consistent, and increasingly faster laps each time out. And, aside from the fact that it started raining hard during the last session on Saturday, and my carb needed to be re-tuned; there was nothing out-of-the-ordinary that happened during any of my runs – the grip level was excellent and quite predictable – the car handles extremely well! I attribute the outstanding handling characteristics to the superb job done by Griggs and the team at Griggs Racing; it was well worth the investment! Now I just need to work on getting my talent to match the capabilities of the car, which should be the really fun part, right! Thanks for the advice given here… even though I didn’t go with it; the advice (and rationale) certainly made me think deeply about what tires to choose and why to choose them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Thanks....anyone want to weigh in on whether a HPDE day the same as MidOhio's lapping program? not having done Mid-O's program I can't say for sure - but with an HPDE you should get a few sessions each day, and depending on which level and in-car instructor to help you figure everything out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmaddox Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Well according to the MidOhio website, this is the lapping program (it requires you complete the high performance driving school and the advanced high performance driving school before you can take "lapping" days) -Is this equivalent to a HPDE? OVERVIEW: Want more track time? The Lapping Program is the most challenging - and fun - driving experience you'll ever have. Spend a full day lapping Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course and see why the track is called the "Most Competitive in the U.S." Participants must first complete the Acura Advanced High Performance Course to enroll. CURRICULUM: • Van rides and a track walk examining the subtleties of Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course with profession Championship winning Instructors • Instructor lead follow session to review and understand proper lines and techniques • Full-course, open lapping sessions with controlled passing areas • Options to lead/follow the instructors or ride with instructors during open lapping sessions • Instructor observation, feedback and critique of driving skills at key, challenging areas of the track • Instructor critique of in car video at participants request • Registration begins at 9:00 a.m. Class ends no later than 6:00 p.m. AMOUNT OF SEAT TIME: On Track Drills – 1 hour On Track Open Lapping – 4 hours or more This course ideally suited for: Acura Advanced High Performance Program Graduates looking for more lapping Car club members interested in a better understanding of Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course in a low traffic non racing environment Racers and Time Trial Drivers new to Mid-Ohio who want to master the circuit before that race weekend in a non racing environment Requirements: Must be at least 18 years of age and have a valid driver's license to enroll. Must have completed our Acura High Performance and Advanced High Performance Courses or another driving program with similar skill sets to enroll. All participants using a school vehicle must sign a liability waiver that states, in the event of damage to the vehicle, you would be responsible for up to $6000 in damages. Using your street car for a class? The Mid-Ohio School recommends the following for all on-track programs: Personal vehicles will be required to have, at a minimum, working factory installed restraint systems (working seat belts) or the equivalent. Tires should have at least 3/32 tread or be DOT approved race tires. Brake pads should be less than ¼ used, performance brake pads recommended. No visible fluid leaks. No convertibles unless equipped with proper roll-over protection. No SUV’s, vans or trucks permitted. Loaner helmets are available at the track. Suggested maintenance to perform prior to arrival : • Torque wheels to recommended specs • Check/adjust tire pressure • Flush brake fluid system • Bring extra brake fluid and motor oil • Bring a tire gauge; air is available at track Upon arrival: • Remove all loose items from vehicle • Check tire pressure often during the day • Re-torque wheels after one or two track sessions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 they sound pretty close - that program sounds like HPDE2 or 3 equivalent to me, but your NASA-GL region people can tell you for sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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