TurboShortBus Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 OK, I've done some research on the proper jargon of a few items listed here, and apparently, a "trailing arm" per 22) refers mostly to a Porsche-style rear suspension (I'm not sure why that couldn't have been mentioned earlier to avoid 75% of the discussion here), something like this: However, a multi-link rear suspension design is also described as a "trailing arm" suspension elsewhere on the internet and in the world, so maybe a short "for example" make/model description might help if it was added to 7) and 22). I'm willing to bet a paycheck that there are plenty of TT cars out there who took +1 for 22) when they (apparently) should have taken +4 for 7), and this kind of thing really needs to be clarified in print in order to avoid heated trackside discussions during TT inspections or at the end of the day if somebody files a protest. Contrary to what you may think, I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass here; I just see something in the rules that is in dire need of clarification in order to avoid misinterpretations and misunderstandings. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted February 11, 2009 National Staff Share Posted February 11, 2009 Feel free to send your paycheck by Paypal. I've seen hundreds and hundreds of TT Car Classification Forms, and I can only remember seeing the trailing arm mod taken by those that were also taking control arms due to highly modified suspensions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 There won't be much left of it after PayPal takes their 3%. So, you have never come across a Mustang, Camaro, etc. with aftermarket rear arms that took +1 instead of +4? I suspect that they are out there... Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted February 11, 2009 National Staff Share Posted February 11, 2009 I suppose there certainly could be some out there. I have seen some older cars pre-'92 take the mod point, but usually in association with other mods like aftermarket panhard rod and torque arm, etc. Tech inspections generally get focused on those that are on or near the podium positions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RACER-X Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 I'm willing to bet a paycheck Mark Pay up-----suckar!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houstonnw Posted February 15, 2009 Author Share Posted February 15, 2009 (edited) Are the TTC times at Texas World Speedway posted anywhere? I tried the NASA Texas and mylaps websites. If not does anyone happen to know what they were the last time? I would like to know if I'm within 1 second or 10! Edit to add: Nevermind, I figured it out! Edited February 16, 2009 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundguydave Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 I'm willing to bet a paycheck Mark Pay up-----suckar!!!!!! Ah, Ken, you're just jealous 'cause you can't get any negative camber outta that "Gee-yem" you're driving... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RACER-X Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 I'm willing to bet a paycheck Mark Pay up-----suckar!!!!!! Ah, Ken, you're just jealous 'cause you can't get any negative camber outta that "Gee-yem" you're driving... I got p p pppplenty last year. -3.5* on each side. Besides, that Gee-Em is in semi-retirement now. Lookie what I gots me now....... viewtopic.php?f=40&t=26213 Come on over if you ain't doin' nothin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundguydave Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 FREE PIZZA?!?!?!?!! I'm in... Not a lot of 944-specific experience, but I'll be happy to offer unsolicited advice anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Feel free to send your paycheck by Paypal. I've seen hundreds and hundreds of TT Car Classification Forms, and I can only remember seeing the trailing arm mod taken by those that were also taking control arms due to highly modified suspensions. FYI to all, I emailed rules 7 and 22 to ten of my Mustang buddies (an assorted group of American Iron/FFC/HPDE drivers, mechanical engineers, drag racers, and daily drivers) to get their feedback regarding how many points would be assessed to a Mustang with aftermarket rear arms based on the wording of the rules at this time. 6 of 10 have replied, and I'll post my findings once all 10 reply. But, so far, it looks like the paycheck is coming my way... Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QUASAR Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Feel free to send your paycheck by Paypal. I've seen hundreds and hundreds of TT Car Classification Forms, and I can only remember seeing the trailing arm mod taken by those that were also taking control arms due to highly modified suspensions. FYI to all, I emailed rules 7 and 22 to ten of my Mustang buddies (an assorted group of American Iron/FFC/HPDE drivers, mechanical engineers, drag racers, and daily drivers) to get their feedback regarding how many points would be assessed to a Mustang with aftermarket rear arms based on the wording of the rules at this time. 6 of 10 have replied, and I'll post my findings once all 10 reply. But, so far, it looks like the paycheck is coming my way... Mark Let me get this straight, if I replace the rear LCA's/Trailing Arms on my Firebird, I have to take the 1+ and the +4 for control arms? That doesn't make any sense. This should be +1 only, otherwise why even have line 22 in the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Let me get this straight, if I replace the rear LCA's/Trailing Arms on my Firebird, I have to take the 1+ and the +4 for control arms? That doesn't make any sense. This should be +1 only, otherwise why even have line 22 in the rules.Per this reply... The upper arm is definitely considered a control arm, regardless of the fact that it doesn't connect to a spindle or knuckle. I have discussed the issue of the lower arms with JWL as they are more controversial, and they are still also considered control arms. As well, almost all of the sites selling the aftermarket arms call them control arms. This really goes back to the general assumption that the arms on multi-link suspensions are all considered control arms as well. Also, there are some of these lower arms that apparently have offsets, which is fine since the car is being assessed +4 for control arms. But, some of the brackets for them relocate the suspension mounting points. Care should be taken when assessing points for these aftermarket suspension pieces. Lastly, the rule regarding control arms is meant for any control arm, not just front. ...I would say that you would take +4 and +1 for those parts. I'll post my findings later tonight from the 10-driver survey that I conducted. And I'll take that paycheck via PayPal... Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 First, here is the exact email that I sent to several Mustang owners: Mustang guys, There is a bit of a debate going on regarding rear suspension parts on Mustangs in the NASA Time Trial class. As you may already know, all permitted modifications done to a car in Time Trial are worth various amounts of points. As current or former Mustang guys (this could even apply to Camaros, etc.), please tell me what you think about the following rules 7 and 22 as applied to a typical Fox, SN95, or S197 Mustang (non-IRS) that has aftermarket rear upper and/or lower arms (I am only referring to them as "arms," not "control arms" or "trailing arms" or whatever other terms are commonly used; the TT rules specifically mention "control" and "trailing" without specific definitions, though). Rules 7 and 22 in bold below are copied and pasted straight from the 2009 NASA Time Trial rulebook. I would like to get your interpretations of how many points you feel would be assessed to a Time Trial Mustang with basic aftermarket rear arms (uppers and/or lowers with rubber or poly bushings, nothing fancy). 7) Replace or modify control arms (other than plates, shims, slots, or eccentric bolts/bushings for simple camber/caster adjustment only)(may have spherical/metallic joint(s) for connection to the spindle/knuckle) +4 points Do you think that rule 7: A. Sounds like it is talking about front suspension, and has nothing to do with a Mustang with aftermarket rear arms B. Is talking about front and/or rear suspension, and would be applied to a Mustang with aftermarket rear arms C. Other (please specify) 22) Non-OEM rear trailing arms (for stiffness only, no change in suspension mount or pick-up points from stock) +1 point Do you think that rule 22: A. Would apply to a Mustang with aftermarket rear arms B. Would not apply to a Mustang with aftermarket rear arms C. Other (please specify) Please give me your choice of A, B, or C for rules 7 and 22. Thanks, Mark Here is some background information about the people I asked. Note that the majority of them work on their own cars. 01 - Factory Five Cobra spec racer (note: no reply received) 02 - American Iron Fox Mustang racer and Fox Mustang street car owner 03 - American Iron SN95 Mustang racer 04 - American Iron/Camaro-Mustang Challenge SN95 Mustang racer (note: no reply received) 05 - Fox and SN95 Mustang street/strip/HPDE driver 06 - Fox Mustang street/strip/HPDE driver 07 - Fox Mustang street/strip/HPDE driver and mechanical engineer 08 - Fox and SN95 Mustang street/strip/HPDE driver and mechanical engineer 09 - Fox Mustang street/strip driver (note: no reply received) 10 - Token F-body Camaro TT driver (note: no reply received) 11 - SN95 Mustang TT driver and NASA-FL instructor 12 - SN95 Mustang HPDE driver 13 - SN95 Mustang street driver (note: no reply given due to self-admitted inexperience on this exact subject; better at washing cars than working on them) So, I have 8 replies out of 13. Here are the voting results, based on the A, B, or C choices for rules 7 and 22: 7A - 6 7B - 1 7C - 1 (explanation: talks about front or rear in the case of IRS but does not apply to non-IRS cars; does not apply to solid axles; we could probably file this under A above) 22A - 8 22B - 0 22C - 0 So, that's how 8 experienced Mustang owners/drivers/wrench-spinners would have filled out their TT paperwork, and per Greg's assessment, every one of them would have been wrong. To me, this says that there is a problem with the wording of the rules, not the interpretations. Keep in mind that I'm not saying (here) that non-OEM rear arms should be worth less than +4 points; I'm just saying that, the way rules 7 and 22 are currently written, they apparently leave themselves open to misinterpretation compared to the way the TT staff intended them to be written, and maybe a rewrite is in order. Mark PayPal account: [email protected] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundguydave Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Let me get this straight, if I replace the rear LCA's/Trailing Arms on my Firebird, I have to take the 1+ and the +4 for control arms? That doesn't make any sense. This should be +1 only, otherwise why even have line 22 in the rules. I'm going to disagree with Mark just a little bit. Earlier in this thread, I asked for a specific clarification on that point, and IF we are considering the "arms" as control arms, then per this post: Control arms are +4 for as many as you want to switch out, front or rear. Yes, you would take the +3 for metallic replacement bushings/spherical/Heim joints if they have them. Again, they are +3 for Heim joints at any/multiple locations. This seems to be a categorical statement that you can replace ALL of the control arms on the car (for a McStrut suspension, that would be the front lower, and ALL the rear arms) for a single +4 points cost, if using any bushing material other than metal. If you're doing Heim joints, then there is a +3 upcharge, but that allows you to use Heim joints ANYWHERE you want... Control arms, tie rod ends, swaybar links, etc. I will, however, agree with Mark that if that is indeed the intent of the rule, then the wording needs to be clarified, or some definitions need to be included. As was the case with Mark's survey, I took the wrong points assessment in the planning stage, and am now scrambling to adjust my build. My recommendation would be to provide clear intent with regards to the definition of "trailing arm," as every single resource that I have been able to locate would point towards that definition fitting all three of the rear suspension members on an S197, hence the confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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