National Staff Greg G. Posted November 29, 2004 Author National Staff Share Posted November 29, 2004 There may be some cases where a 10pt assessment with a lower base class is more appropriate than a higher base class (ie. for special edition cars in particular). I'd rather not try to redo the entire classification scheme, though. I can see using the 10 pt "double star" when necessary, but it will be a huge task to go through the hundreds of cars, researching hp/wt, brakes, suspension, etc. to determine if perhaps a car is classed 5 pts. higher than it should be. Basically, adding the 10 point stars for the entire scheme could force a reclassification of numerous cars (by virtue of now having essentially 21 different base classes instead of 14). However, if someone has a specific car in mind, we can take a look at it. I would be more willing to have someone make a case for a specific car, than to try to research and change all of the cars. Jim, any thoughts on the 10 pt. double star assessment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon2dmaX Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 One thing we might look at is how many points we add to each car at the start...........Right now...some of the cars we add only 5 points.... maybe some of the cars should start with 10 points. This might help. If you look at the 2004 Focus with the 2.3L Duratech and the 2004 Mazada3 with the 2.3L Duratech. The Focus has about 145 hp...where the Mazada3 has about 155hp... The Mazada3 also has four wheel disc brakes.....where the Focus uses disc/drums. So we also have to look at more then just HP.... we have to look at OEM brakes and suspensions. I would agree that if the Mazda3 has a upgraged model similar to the Focus with the 2.3, it should be classed similarly. As for having 21 classes, I don't see that happening. In any event, the alternative is bumping up a special edition by one full class, which clearly is not justified in some cases. As for considering suspension and brakes, I would agree that they should not be ignored. Remember, the Neon ACR (whether SOHC or DOHC) has the same engine as the non ACR counterpart, but has different shocks, springs, and may have a different sway bar (as compared to some of the cars). It also has a different PCM; one that does not have a rev limiter; although the same in other respects to my understanding. Thus, the proposed +5-10 rule takes those matters into consideration. Anlther alternative to the 5-10 point rule is to class all models at the higher level in accordance with the Special Edition. Then allow others to deduct points for deleted items, or allow others to bring their car up to class without adding penalties. For example, if all Neons were classed as F, allow a deduction for SOHC; nonadjustable shocks; PCM with rev limiter, etc. This method has some advantage in that it most people who are interested in competition (at some level) probably have opted for an upgraded version of the car they intend to use. No matter which method is ultimately chosen, if there is a special edition, someone in the group is likely to have some awareness of the particular car and be able to provide some basic insight as to the classification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricardo Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 How about if we put naturally aspirated cars in one class and forced induction cars in another. Or if you start the season in one car you must race the whole season in the same car... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted November 30, 2004 Author National Staff Share Posted November 30, 2004 I was about to make a stupid comment like, "How about we put all silver BMWs in one class, and everyone else in another?", but I decided not to. Guys, please focus on what I've asked for (like the info that Ted gave above, or possible specific changes in the number of points for a given modification, or if a modification that should get points doesn't currently get points.) We aren't looking to come up with a new set of rules....just to improve on the ones that we currently use (that again, worked pretty well last year). Thanks for your help. As far as the second comment about mandatory use of the same car all season, I believe that the TT series is a competition between drivers driving in the same class, not a competition between cars, car owners, or manufacturers. Everytime someone modifies their car in some way during the season, the car becomes "a different car" in some respect (more power, better brakes, lighter weight, better suspension, etc.) As long as the car doesn't get enough points to get bumped up to the next class, the driver can still compete in that car. I started last year with a TTE car, but competed in TTD from the start of the season with it because I knew I would be modifying it up to the TTD level during the season. And, you certainly don't have any problem modifying your car during the season to try to improve it, right? Well, what is the difference between doing that, and using another same class car? In thinking about it, I would say that most car competition series are between the drivers, and not the individual cars, although the sponsorship arrangements between owners and car manufacturers often dictates that a driver will drive one make of car only. Otherwise, everytime a pro driver trashed a car, he would be done for the year. Given that none of us have the resources to have an identical back-up car, it is only reasonable to allow drivers to compete in another car that is in the same class. TT is supposed to be as inclusive as possible. We want drivers to come out as often as possible. If that means that a driver may need to use a subsitute car while their primary car's engine is being rebuilt for 2 months, then so what, as long as it's in the same class? If someone decides to sell their car, and buy another that is in the same class, then why should we exclude them or take away the points they have earned? If their car gets stolen, crashed, or vandalized on the streets, shouldn't they still be allowed to compete? Or, would you rather have less drivers coming out, because they decided it wasn't worth it to continue the series since they missed some days or had to start over in points? I prefer to have as many qualified drivers as possible come out with us. It's more exciting, better competition, and brings us the possibility of our own run groups. Now, what wouldn't be fair would be to have another person drive your car in your name, and get points for you. The only exception to this would be if it was pre-approved for more than one person to drive a car as a team...basically functioning as one driver, but credit would go to the team, not an individual. We did lose a bunch of TTD drivers mid-season due to mechanical problems this year. I would rather have had them continue with a substitute car if they could have than to just drop out of the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FocusTed Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Another thing we might look at is some cars come with only rear wheel drums.... Right now I don't see any points add if they change to rear wheel disc. I would think that should be worth some points. Since changing to performance brake pads is 1 point and changing to a Big Brake system is 3 (which might be low), maybe changing rear drums to disc should be 2 points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FocusTed Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Opps... I forgot... I think a SVT Focus with a rating of TTE might be too high. It should be closer to the 2.3L Focus. I know it has 170hp, four wheel disc, HP Shock and springs.... but from what I've seen with the Focus Challenge Guys, their best SVT time at Willow Spring was around 1:48 or 1:47 which is slower then my time in my 2.3L Focus. Of course I don't know how many laps they've done at Willow. So, I say point the SVT Focus in TTF with a 5 to 10 points added. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NASA Jim Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Let's try and make new topics for each classification request/suggestion and rule change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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