TurboShortBus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I've been running a set of Toyo Proxes RA1 tires for a little over a year, but I recently switched from 16" wheels to 17" wheels, so I'm starting over with new tires. My TTD Mustang GT sees track use only, and is never used on the street. It sits in the driveway, gets loaded onto the trailer, makes a weekend's worth of laps, then goes back to the driveway via the trailer. With my previous 255/50-16 RA1s (CMC spec size), my car was maxed out in points for TTD. With that being said, I'd like to stay in TTD without amassing additional points that would put me as a low-end TTC backmarker. My next tire size will likely be a 255/40-17 that won't cost me any more width points. For the same size, I was "told" by a Toyo rep at the PRI convention that the Toyo R1R tires will perform equally to the RA1s (based on the compound and reinforcing), but the R1Rs are a 0 point tire (treadwear 140) while the RA1s are +5 points (treadwear 100). The R1Rs have a more directional tread pattern and possibly deeper tread (the current .pdf spec file for the R1Rs on Toyo's site isn't able to be opened right now). Do any of you have enough experience with the R1Rs that you could recommend one over the other? While the R1Rs will free up 5 points that can be spent elsewhere (I really don't have that much done to the car right now), are the RA1s worth those 5 points over R1Rs and further (albeit currently undetermined) modifications? Maybe the 5 extra R1R points could be spent on a wider size, etc. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 thier marketing is a bit suspect methinks - they say the R888 is much faster than the RA1, but its pretty close to a wash from what I've seen there is one way to tell for sure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted February 13, 2009 Author Share Posted February 13, 2009 there is one way to tell for sure... Oh, of course! I'm just trying to limit how many $800 sets of tires I need to buy to figure it out! Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obzezzed350 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 What would you use the +5 points for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted February 13, 2009 Author Share Posted February 13, 2009 What would you use the +5 points for?More suspension parts that would actually make a difference (non-OEM sway bars, or experiment with a Panhard bar, or to compensate for additional chassis attachment points for the roll cage I want to build) or a wider tire size. In my case, any engine-related or weight reduction parts would be a waste (I'm probably pretty close to or better than the TTD power/weight number as it is; a trip to the dyno is coming up before the next event at Sebring). Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owenxguo Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Some of my friends use R1R for time attack events, and pretty good results. I'v heard some people said that R1R uses exactly same material as R888, just different tread design, I didn't find any confirmation about it yet though. update, forgot to mention, all my friends drive light weight cars such as S2000 and Elise, I don't how much your car weight. But I think weight really matters, I'v seen people with evo and sti(let's say about 3400lbs with driver) talking about advan a032r, most of them would kill 1 brand new set in 1 track weekend. But I had them on my s2000(2800lbs with driver), I'v used at least 6 weekends and still have some tread left. So maybe you should check with someone with equal weight cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZELISE Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 In my experience, the R888 was definitely faster than the RA-1. Maybe since my car is light (2000 lbs with driver) it falls in the category with the previous post. If you are concerned about buying many sets of tires you should ask about how long the R1R's will last on a heavy car. How about going down a size to run 245's in NT-01 or R888's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted February 13, 2009 Author Share Posted February 13, 2009 I'm somewhere in between the S2000 and the Evo/STi at 3185 lbs with driver and no gas. With further gutting and roll cage installation, the car will pick up about 50-70 lbs, putting me in the 3250 range. Currently, the car is disgustingly nose-heavy, with 60% up front and 40% out back. According to Toyo, there are tons of drivers "out west" who use the R1Rs for Time Attack. However, down here in Florida, I haven't noticed any cars with R1Rs (not to say that they aren't here), although we have a relatively small group each weekend compared to other NASA groups. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted February 13, 2009 Author Share Posted February 13, 2009 If you are concerned about buying many sets of tires you should ask about how long the R1R's will last on a heavy car. How about going down a size to run 245's in NT-01 or R888's. Well, I'm mostly concerned about buying a set of tires, realizing "these things are crap" after the first weekend, then being stuck with them for the rest of the season as it's not all that feasible for me to buy multiple sets of tires for the sake of experimenting. I don't believe that this car ate the current set of RA1s at an unreasonable rate, given its weight and my outright lack of wheel skills. Toyo's .pdf file about their R888 tire sizes is also corrupt, so I'm having a hard time seeing the available tire sizes. Good idea on the narrower size but stickier compound idea...I had looked into that a while back, and going from 255 to 245 will get 3 points back that can be spent by going from my +5 tires to +7 tires. 245/40-17s will be a little tight to stretch onto my 17x9 wheels, but it can be done. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZELISE Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I have a friend that has R1R's on his stock Boxter S. He had to flip the fronts after two track days in DE2 due to the feather edge. I drove his car on track and thought the tires had almost RA-1 level grip. At a Button Willow major time attack, an Elise driver won 2007 on R1R's. In 2008 he drove on Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec with some aero mods and was 2 seconds faster. Also, a local driver in an Evo (heavy car) did back to back testing comparing NT-05's with the Dunlops. The Dunlops were faster. If you are thinking of driving on 0 points tires with a heavy car, consider the Dunlops. Make sure they are the Star Specs and not the plain Dizzerias. Sorry, most of the information is third hand. I have driven in TT on Yok A0488's, Toyo RA-1, R888, Kumho V700, V710, BFG R1 and Hoosier R6. So, I have had more than my share of buyer's remorse. No street tire experience in TT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZELISE Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Toyo's website works for me. R888 sizes in 16/17 and 245/255: (6/32" depth) 245/45R16 245/40ZR17 255/40ZR17 R1R sizes (8/32" depth) 225 is the widest 16 so I did not include it 245/45ZR17 245/40ZR17 255/40ZR17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixR34 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I think saying "time attack guys use them" isn't helpful, especially if they're using them in a street tire class. I don't have any back to back data, but the Dunlop Direzza Z1s are *amazing* subjectively, and objectively there are many people going really fast on those tires. I don't know if they're as fast as an RA1, but they can't be far off. Also consider that who knows how long the RA1 will be around for.. are they continuing production now that the R888 is out? Will the supply of RA1s eventually run out, or just have really old build dates? If you can't find RA1s, or the ones that are available are old and crusty, it could be a waste of 5 points. IMO, running street tires instead of RA1s to save 5 points is only worth it if you need the 5 points to reach the power to weight limit of the class. If you can get to 14.25:1 already, then I would say yes, use the 5 points for tires. I don't think running street tires instead of RA1s, so you can use the 5 points to replace suspension arms, is really worth it.. tires and HP are worth seconds; replacing suspension arms or brake calipers are not, usually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badass55 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 ok her is some in site. i have ran both the RA1 and the new R1Rs on the track and i have spoken with the rep regarding the tire. RA1 and the R1R r as close to the same tire as you will get. the new R1R is made with the same compound and has a slightly deeper tread depth (to meet the 140 tread wear). after running both tires on the track, i did not notice much of a difference other then with a full tread on the R1Rs i had a bit of give. as i drove the tire in got better, wish i would have shaved them from the start. the tread pattern is great and i did not heat them as much as i thought i would have. i run a 2000 civic SI 160WHP with a 205/45/15 and i am going to buy them again. i hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I think saying "time attack guys use them" isn't helpful, especially if they're using them in a street tire class. actually its extremely valid, if you're wanting to compare various street tires or find the best one of the crop to line up against middle-tier r-comps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixR34 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 actually its extremely valid, if you're wanting to compare various street tires or find the best one of the crop to line up against middle-tier r-comps Well, until those people start running the R1R back to back with the RA1 and posting the results, how will anyone know if it's worth running the R1R instead of the RA1? I've sifted through the TA results from various events and can't really find a way to quantify any of the street tires.. until someone does a back to back test, it's all theoretical IMO. It seems like it would be better to compare TT cars within the same class if anything, because with the loose rules of the various time attack series, there are many other factors besides tires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted February 14, 2009 Author Share Posted February 14, 2009 IMO, running street tires instead of RA1s to save 5 points is only worth it if you need the 5 points to reach the power to weight limit of the class. If you can get to 14.25:1 already, then I would say yes, use the 5 points for tires. I don't think running street tires instead of RA1s, so you can use the 5 points to replace suspension arms, is really worth it.. tires and HP are worth seconds; replacing suspension arms or brake calipers are not, usually.Good point there about the hp/wt. I think that I'm right about at the 14.25, as my 3185 lb car with (rated) 260 crank hp - 15% driveline loss should be about 221 rwhp, so that's 14.41 lb/hp. I'll have it on a dyno in a few weeks to fully confirm the power numbers, though. Not to worry, as I wouldn't waste those 5 points on suspension arms! I already spent 2 points on Brembo front calipers (mostly for durability and reliability, only somewhat for performance), as I was destroying stock 11" PBR calipers and Carbotech pads on a regular and frequent basis. I would mainly look at spending those points on swaybars or tires. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbfoco Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 i know this isnt worth much to u guys being a "west coast TA guy" but i ll share anyway From actual testing...weird huh The r1r's are not as fast as RA-1 or R888. There was 1.5 second gap between 255 ra1 vs r1r. The r1r are only good for 1 hotlap on a 3000lb 460whp evo before they overheat. ra-1 handles heat much much better. 255r1r vs 275 nt01.. not a fair comparrison.. but there was a consistant 3 second difference. Advan nueva 007 withstand heat much better if you are set on street tires. Also from our experience are about a second faster than the r1r. The dunlops we have not experience with. But Bridgestone re01 are on the same level lap wise as the R1r but still withstand heat better than the r1r. We like the advans, but theres supposed to be an updated version out this year thats better....along with a new Nitto nt05. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s2k4TTC Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 the toyo R1R is simply a street tire, and who ever said that it is the same as a R888 is retarded..The R888 has a treadreading off 100 same as the RA1 and both of those tires say( for comp use only). So if I were you mark I would stick to the Ra1's. I ran them all last year and at nationals mainly because i was maxxed out in points for TTC. and thats how the car sits right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badass55 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 I never said they were the same as the R888. Per the rep I spoke with, "The R1R is the same compound as the RA1. However, they were made with a tread deeper to meet the 140 wear and be labeled as a street tire for use in street and spec time attack." I have run both the R1R and the RA1. The RA1 were shaved and the R1R were not. I noticed the R1R had a bit more give but as they wore in the felt very good. I don’t know how they would feel if they where shaved from the start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 (edited) Great info here...thanks! The claim that the Toyo rep made was that the R1R tires use the same "GG" rubber compound as the RA1 and R888 tires. While that may be true, I don't have any information about the rest of the tire structure. Also, while this is what the rep told me, I have yet to see any of this in writing on Toyo's site or anybody else's site. jbfoco: Thanks for the time comparison...1.5 seconds per lap is good info to have. I'm not quite a 3000 lb and 460 whp car, but rather a 3200 lb and 230 rwhp car, so we aren't far on the weights. And, with my Mustang being 60% nose-heavy and 40% out back, handling is a bit of a challenge. badass55: Thanks for the comparison of your on-track results as well. While they seemed to perform the same on your Civic, I wonder if a 3200 lb Mustang might overpower and overheat them. With all of this being said, I'll stick to a typical R-compound +5 or +7 tire for my next set (255/40-17). I'll still be maxed out in TTD with a +5 tire (RA1), but I can stay in TTD with a +7 tire (NT-01 maybe, etc.) if I just add 24 lbs back to the car. More options there for me to overthink...lol Thanks to all for the info! Mark Edited February 27, 2009 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixR34 Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 If the R1R is the same compound as the RA1, then what's the difference between the R1R and a full-tread RA1? I find it hard to believe they're the exact same compound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 If the R1R is the same compound as the RA1, then what's the difference between the R1R and a full-tread RA1? I find it hard to believe they're the exact same compound.Yeah, that's one of those "too good to be true" deals, in my opinion. And, when I called Toyo to speak to somebody in tech, all I got was the person who answered the phone to read straight out of their product literature. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixR34 Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I bought a set of wheels with some R1R tires on them. While my "test" wasn't scientific (simply pressing my fingernail into the tread), they sure didn't feel soft and squishy like a full tread RA1 does. Maybe the compound changes as you get deeper into the tire.. who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IGZOSTD Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Saving wt. in a Mustang is never a wast . I ran mine with a stock chassie with springs for two years and had success in the c and b class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badass55 Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 good luck with what ever tire you pick. if i get the chance to test the tire on a heaver car ill pass the info along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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