Tim Comeau Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 I've run 3 with NASA and 1 with the POC this year and I'm hooked! I still haven't given up the dream of running the 25 Hours of Thunderhill. I might have to put it off for another year, or settle for the shorter 12 Hour race within the 25 Hour event. It'll cost a lot of money for the 25. 6 sets of tires plus extras for flat spots and punctures, a couple sets of rains, 2 RV's for the drivers and crew to sleep in, Entry fee is $1K, Engine rebuild before AND after the event, Paying 1 or 2 Porsche technicians and a Team Manager, it really adds up fast and most people have no idea of the costs associated. Do it across country and you have to add in airfares and maybe hotels! But it's fun as hell. Much more thinking and planning. Contingency plans. There's a difference between planning for something to happen and preparing for the situation when it doesn't. Spares, cross training, etc. Anyway, I really dig it so far. It's added a new dimension to my enjoyment of our old Porsches. Give it a try. If I can do it, you can:D I know Steve Sapareto and Joe Paluch have run some enduros. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec-944#70 Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 Tim before you get to excited about the 25 hour run you better make sure your car will be in E2 instead of E1 as it's listed in the rules. E2 is with the Miatas and RX7's like you normally run and E1 is with the bigger boys! 944 N/A is listed in the E1 group. I don't know if Spec 944 will be put back in E2 or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted October 16, 2004 Author Share Posted October 16, 2004 Thanks for the heads up, sincerely, but I noticed that months ago and asked about it. The reason it says 944 in E1 is that last year an SCCA ITS(?) 944 entered. So they just called it 944. The ads were already out. NASA has stated that 944-spec belongs in E2. I wouldn't even try to win against the cars in E1. I wouldn't be going for an overall win, just an E2 class win, which would be tough enough as it is against the fast Hondas. You can see some of the associated costs now. An good price for an engine rebuild is around $3500, not including pistons. There's $7,000 right there. You can see that I'd be in E2 now. So I'm not so crazy now? But, I'll take your good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec-944#70 Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 You have it. Good Luck. I hope you can pull it off!! I'll be rooting for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NASA Jim Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 You can see some of the associated costs now. An good price for an engine rebuild is around $3500, not including pistons. Oiy! I'm glad we can get $300 replacement motors for our cars. You'd better watch out though- I'm gonna get together an organized SER effort for next year's Socal Enduro season. Together we can squash those Hondas! BTW, congrats on your E2 win this season! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted October 17, 2004 Author Share Posted October 17, 2004 Thanks, Eric. I'd need some good "proven" drivers...... Hey Jim, If we do a "running engine" swap, it's more like $500-$800? Thanks for the congrats. I believe you mean the SoCal enduro series Championship? I want to do the 3-hour night enduro at T-hill in Nov. for the West Coast Endurance Series, too. That would double as practice for the 25 Hours of Thunderhill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NASA Jim Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 believe you mean the SoCal enduro series Championship? Right. Because THill is a monster of a tow- I went up there for a Cup race two years ago and with Tom for the 12 hour. You think it is just an hour past Sacto, but then you have to keep going. Sucks to tow from Socal to there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Engine rebuilds are Not $3500 each. They can be done for lots less. Really all that you need to rebuild for the 25 hrs are rod and main bearings. Of course that does take a complete teardown and rebuild, but you should not need to touch the bores. Might need to check over the head. Parts for this type of rebuild are $500-700. Learn how to do the rebuilds and time is only factor as they are NOT very hard to do. So that cuts costs. Tires... Hmm do you need 6-sets? I figure 1 set for rains and another 2 for dry's. That should cover it. Porsche tech? You don't need one. Especially if you know how to do a rebuild. These cars are not THAT complex. As long as one or two drivers can do a rebuild themselves you are set. Tim I believe it can be done for alot less money than you think. Can you win in class? Well smart driving and a little luck is all you can hope for. Just go out and run and see what happens If you are looking good after 22hrs then go for it. Otherwise just finishing the event should be the goal your first time out. Heck finishing the event with no major pit time will probably give you a strong chance to win the class. Unfortunatly my schedule does not permit me to be apart of the event this year, but maybe in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted October 18, 2004 Author Share Posted October 18, 2004 I'd love to have you as part of the crew because of your driving talent AND your knowledge of the cars. Your big mistake about the rebuild calculations is the "do it yourself" factor in the equation. I'm just a driver, I'd have to pay someone to do it. No choice. Yes, I could teach myself, given some time, and some factory manuals, etc. But, I need to have it done right, by a professional. The first time. I wouldn't be comfortable taking money from drivers, and putting my name on the line unless the car's engine was 100% gone through. I can't have "just enough" tires. Not after guys have spent their money on my effort. 2 sets of rains, etc. I can always sell them off later. I would need a tech there. I don't know the cars well enough yet and what if my other drivers come from Mazdas or Hondas? We could fail for some stupid little electrical connection that someone like you would know about! Gotta have everything in place for an effort this big. Now you know why I called you FIRST! So, in summary, YOU might be able to do it for less than me because of your knowledge, but not me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgrow Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Is the prep level allowed in this class consistent with these kind of enduros? Is it really enough to just have fresh engine, brakes and tires? When I think about the systems employed on pro-class enduro cars like redundant systems (master cylinders, fuel pumps, ignitions, etc.) and mil-spec electrical connectors I have to wonder. Granted pro cars have more at stake, but the numbers that are being thrown around is a year's racing budget - and this doesn't include pre-emptive parts replacement. Few of us have replaced the mostly 20-yr old parts on our 'sprint' cars. I'm not arguing the fun factor or challenge, but few of our cars are built to withstand the rigors of a 25-hr race (I struggle w/ 35 min sprint race). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 When it comes to the length of the event I think our cars are actually pretty good. Only concern I would have is keep the oil level up to ensure the rod bearings survive. Sure things can fail, but a well sorted sprint car will handle the distance quite well. I would think that we would want a fresh engine, fresh front, brake rotors and pads. Keep a spare set of front pads with you just in case. If you want to I guess you could do fresh wheel bearings, but in all the miles our cars have seen before racing and after racing wheel bearings are actully pretty solid on these cars. If you can get the car running strong for a season or two all the little things that are old an can fail due to PO abuse will have been addressed. This leaves the just race wear related items. Hey I look a 25 hr race like this. Get fresh engine, brakes, and plenty of tires. Then look togather 4-5 guys agree to split the costs and labor to pull it off. Tell them it will a be a low budget effort run-whata-brug type thing. Try to get everyone in the car early and then just keep going. Should not need more than 1 RV and maybe on driver can donate one to the cause. Get 4-5 spec guys that can do some wreching and there is you pit crew. Maybe get 1 wife/girlfriend to act at food/rest coordinator. Have car owner as team manager. If you finish great. If not I would have been a cool experience and you can learn more for next year. It really does not have to be Big production. With fresh motor & brakes I'd bet my car could handle the 25. In fact my only concerns about running it myself are rod bearings and so other yahoo crashing into it. The major downside to my car is smaller fuel tank. In a short enduro that may not be a issue, but in longer one... Then again I think rules per mitt only 10 gals added per stop so that effectivly means a 10 gallon tank of gas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgrow Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 If low oil is one of the biggest worries, I'd be willing to contribute my Accusump and oil lines. I think it would serve as a 3-4 quart reservoir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Jeff, Simple solution is to check the oil at each fuel stop and add as required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec-944#70 Posted October 19, 2004 Share Posted October 19, 2004 Did I see in the rules that you can only change 1 tire at a time in the hot pits? That doesn't make any sense unless they want the cars out of the way and are going to make you do 4 wheel changes in a safer place. Also I noticed you can have 2 fuel tanks totalling 44 gal but can only fuel up to 30 gal at a time while only having 5 5gal jugs in your pit at the same time. Tim are you going to add another fuel cell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted October 19, 2004 Author Share Posted October 19, 2004 Jeff, That's a smart idea. Another good one from you. Yes, for some reason, NASA rules say that in races longer than 6 hours, you can only take on 10 gallons per stop. I'm not sure why, but I'll find out. Joe, I considered your approach to the 25, i.e., find a driver with an RV, get all drivers(if they were all 944 drivers) to bring their sets of wheels/tires and spares. Does someone have a portable generator? I bought a 10' x 20' E Z UP and a halogen floodlight stand, etc. It's do-able, it's budget-wise, but I wouldn't like to be wanting for anything. Still, I'd be willing to do it that way if it didn't cost me alot of money. I simply can't afford it. I'd really love to start gathering personal experience for the longer endurance races. Wish you could be part of the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanElam Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Where are you guys getting engines? My wife's 944 blew up on the last lap this weekend at Summit Point and we need a replacement. Since she's still learning the car we can just go with a junkyard motor and get a good rebuild later. BTW, I did run the 25 Hour last year and it was a lot of fun. Getting in a car that I have never ever sat in (my original car was wrecked before I got to drive it), in a track where I had three laps, in the rain, in the dark... far and away the hardest driving I have ever done. But it was a lot of fun as the team focused on what we had to do and doing the planning. I am looking forward to this years race. But I am going to the November Thunderhill to get a little track time this year..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 I get my engines from parts cars. Then again I have 3 parts cars! Seriously. A junkyard motor is a place to start, but it is nice to put in fresh rod bearings at least. I have seen a number of junkyard motors spin rod bearings after only few track hours. In my case I would never take the time to install a motor in my car with first having pull it apart and done rod and MAIN bearings. For me this not alot of money since I can do all the work myself, but if you must pay a shop I can see how you may not want to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Hey Mr. Joe, back in the day, when I was prepping my "current" car for track use, I discussed rod bearings with the then "incompetent" mechanic. I wanted to do them, but he gave me the speal that it could be easy or it could be an issue? He said things had to be measured for wear, to see if oversized bearings were required? Do you go that far? Or do you just buy a stock set of bearings and put them in? P.Dilly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Well look for evidence of wear or scoring. If it looks like there has been alot either on crank or old bearings they you should get a mic and check it. Specs are the factory manuals. With a good mic the crank diameter is easy to measure since it does not require it to be fixed down in anyway. In my case I have gone with standard bearings on both time I have done rod & mains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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