robbodleimages Posted March 30, 2009 Author Share Posted March 30, 2009 Speaking of the 2010 power plant, Ford is about to put a 5.0L modular with an aluminum block in production mustangs. That will essentially make the 5L Cammer currently in Koni Challenge Mustangs AI legal. The price of poker will have been raised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbrown8439 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 They are heavy 100lb over a iron 302 . and the alum. Dart is cool 80lbs lighter and good for AIX at 5k.You can't argue money with cams costing $750, intakes at about $800 for a Logan .even the headers are costly. Are we comparing a stock iron block that will break at ~450 RWHP to an aluminum block that I have personally seen hold over 1000 RWHP? Doesn't seem like much of an apples to apples comparison. Yes, my cams may cost $750 but I'm using stock followers and lash adjusters that are good to 8500 rpm. How much money will you have in in your whole valve train? Good lifters, push rods, and rockers aren't cheap. So lets see, $250 for your cam, $350 for good rockers, $300 for decent lifters, and $150 for push rods. All of a sudden my cams seem cheap. Ultimately, you can make a good engine out of either setup and neither will be "cheap". Having fun is the important part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Speaking of the 2010 power plant, Ford is about to put a 5.0L modular with an aluminum block in production mustangs. That will essentially make the 5L Cammer currently in Koni Challenge Mustangs AI legal. The price of poker will have been raised. I don't think that the new 5.0L motor is based on the current Modular platform... I think it's the new "coyote" series motor so the aftermarket will have to start all over again. From what I understand is that not one part is a cross over... Also, a stock lincoln mark 8 block, bored or stroked or bored and stroked with any production 2V, 3V or 4V head is legal in AI. Only difference on the KCM motor is that MASSIVE intake which is heavy as hell. I can make just as much if not more power out of a 2V that weighs about 50lbs less than the "Cammer". It ain't easy but it's cheaper than what ford is asking for the "cammer"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IGZOSTD Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 These mod motors seem to have a short life span with Ford. They were working on a big inch version and dropped it when our economy went South Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted March 31, 2009 Author Share Posted March 31, 2009 I think what you are talking about is the Coyote series that was to be named Boss. A 5L version for Mustangs and a 6L+ version for the F150. It appears at present the truck plans have been shelved, but the Mustang plans have not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IGZOSTD Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 (edited) Yes the 6l is the one I heard about over a yr ago and I expected it in the makeover model,. which looks like it has already backed into a wall . Edited April 1, 2009 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 These mod motors seem to have a short life span with Ford. 17 years a short life span? I suppose the windsor was over 30 years by the time it disappeared from the explorers... so for those still running them, you have engine technology that is nearing 50 years old in your race cars! LOL!! :stickpoke: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IGZOSTD Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I don't understand why your laughing , the mod motors just can't make the same power as old push-rods do in n/a configuration . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbr96 Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 17 years a short life span? I suppose the windsor was over 30 years by the time it disappeared from the explorers... so for those still running them, you have engine technology that is nearing 50 years old in your race cars! LOL!! :stickpoke: Hmm, not sure what the stickpoke is for towards the push rods guys. Hell the 4V DOHC engine dates back to at least 1913. I guess it just takes some companies longer to figure things out, sort of. Carry on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbrown8439 Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I don't understand why your laughing , the mod motors just can't make the same power as old push-rods do in n/a configuration . Well, I guess you are right if we are comparing a 400+ cubic inch windsor to a 281 cubic inch Mod Motor. If you want to keep this some what of an apples to apples comparison then I have to disagree. We have several NA 4.6 4 valve motors making just under 500 RWHP using OE heads, block, and crank. These motors are built to a set of rules that are rather restrictive (limited intake manifold, bore, stroke, valve size etc) and could make even more power if rules weren't a concern. Roush/Yates is getting ~650 HP out of their 4 valve DP motors that are built to be an endurance motor not a all out power effort. If you want to go a little bigger look at the Mustangs running in World Challenge. If the rules haven't changed they are running a destroked 5.4 and don't seem to have a problem keeping up with the pushrod motors there. I'm not sure why any of this matters when the OP should only need to make ~350 RWHP. Either platform can easily make that power but if it were me I would build a mod motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevepoe Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 ya, what Greg said. oh ,and my dad can beat up your dad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IGZOSTD Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Whats it Cost to build a new 650 hp Roush/Yates , mod motor . No guessing allowed , I didn't guess when I handed over the cash for my build. END of STORY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbrown8439 Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Whats it Cost to build a new 650 hp Roush/Yates , mod motor . No guessing allowed , I didn't guess when I handed over the cash for my build. END of STORY About the same price as a pushrod motor built to the same specs. I quote Mod motor builds every day. Let me know what your requirements for a motor were and I would be happy to get you prices. You might regret your decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted April 1, 2009 Author Share Posted April 1, 2009 This has been a great thread to read. The car I am getting comes with a 5L cammer. I will either figure a way out to race it with that or drop a 3V in it for AI. I have a brand new 351w coming. I think that will be available in the for sale section. I love the 351 in my Cobra R and will keep it that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IGZOSTD Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Greg , I will only regret it if I run over my wallet on the way out the other side .Thats not a good responce . I just wanted to know what a motor like that cost . You don't have to do a worksheet to know the cost of a build you regularly do. I doubt you could give me the same power for less in a mod . Like I said I have all the good parts , I won't give the combo but it has a Dart blk, AFR205 heads, shaft rockers , custom pistons and a forged lite rotating assembly , a NASCAR ( special duty type) cam and the super duper spark system . Yes it is not cheap , and it was built for a different car. We think the numbers come out to about 600 to 635hp and about 440 to 460ft.It wont be on the dyno till late this yr early nx yr . I helped a guy pick parts for a 347 with AFR185 heads with a much smaller Comp Magnum cam at 10.5:1 compression, same builder put the thing together he came up at 538 hp .I did not expect even near 500, so we know these things work. If you all want I'll post the numbers when its all tuned up. Push Rod Squad my bore is bigger and my stroke is longer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbrown8439 Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 So I guess you are building an under powered AIX car? I really have no idea what a DP motor would cost but I'm sure it would be enough to run my car for a couple seasons. That is spending on a completly different level. Those guy's spend an amazing amount of money looking for a couple horsepower because they have a strick set of rules to go by. We don't have those rules and that makes things much cheaper for us. We have a 1000 RWHP 3 valve motor here that I would bet was built for less than a DP motor would cost. I agree with you that if you are going for maximum power without a power adder you can't beat cubic inches. My issue here has been some of the unfounded and in some cases just plain wrong statements you have made here. 3k for an oe stock block thats spendyDart , any size you like up to 460ci. not cc, half the price You never answered me in relation to this statement. Show me where you can get an aluminum Dart block for $1500. Really, show me where. I don't understand why your laughing , the mod motors just can't make the same power as old push-rods do in n/a configuration . Another statement you made that in a lot of situations is wrong. If you want to make generalizations like this you should expect people point out that you are wrong. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. You have yours and it is accurate in a lot of ways. Just don't state your opinion as fact unless you have the data to prove it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IGZOSTD Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 OK Mr. Brown no where in this thread did I say a Dart alum. block cost 1500, you currently can't buy an iron one for that . and second Mr. Horsepower No Mod N/A can get 1000 hp . so I'll take my Push Rods and my big ass Bore and stroke any day . Get Your Facts straight next time you chose to throw stones . You build these motors all the time and have no idea off the cost . Now who's talking out their back side . Out here we call you a 100%er By the way my block was a gift . so at that time $2000, today's price is $2800.and the alum is about $5500 the no deal prices . When I need any more hp I have plenty of friends to help , and I also have a great day job. So I take it your driving an overweight AI car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbrown8439 Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 3k for an oe stock block thats spendyDart , any size you like up to 460ci. not cc, half the price So you didn't say this? The 1000HP statement was a mistake on my part. That motor has a 88mm turbo on it and I can tell you exactly how much it cost. I don't work for Roush/Yates and have never purchased a motor from them so I'm not sure why you expect me to know how much they cost. I've already made the offer to quote you an engine for comparison purposes but you never gave me any specs. And to be clear, I'm not throwing stones, I'm merely asking you to make sure the claims you make here are somewhat factual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IGZOSTD Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Half the price is ball park and doesn't indicate an aluminum block go back and read the last post there is plenty of info on my build . I know to get about 400 hp out of a 3v with a bullit proof lower is going to start a 10k. Thats with no porting or exaust sys or a good intake manifold I personaly haven't seen proof of any Mod making anywhere near push rod engine power. No cubic inches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Half the price is ball park and doesn't indicate an aluminum block go back and read the last post there is plenty of info on my build . I know to get about 400 hp out of a 3v with a bullit proof lower is going to start a 10k. Thats with no porting or exaust sys or a good intake manifold I personaly haven't seen proof of any Mod making anywhere near push rod engine power. No cubic inches Please send everyone you know that is spending 10k on a mod motor to me immediately. I will even offer to bend them over and use lube. bullit proof lowers are $3500. Long tubes in the 800 area with necessary exhaust mods. Cams, $1000. dynoTune and chip...$550. That's $5850 and pretty damn close to 400 crank hp. So if you are saying I can make $4150 profit for doing the work, send them my way. Hell, if you want to sell the 3V stock bottom end for 1200, and build a junkyard mark 8 block for $175, you could even cut that cost even lower. Yes, if you want a big bore stroker aluminum mod, it's going to cost you $5800 for a shortblock, but even then, ported heads aren't required to get to 400 RWHP on a 4V. bolt all the stock stuff back on with some cams and exhaust mods and you are sitting on 450rwhp. Mostly stock parts too! Everyone has their favorite motor but I will say your facts are drastically off related to Mod engine costs.....unless you are paying someone to do it all for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IGZOSTD Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 And there it is folks Not everyone has the resource to build an engine. then stepping into mod motor land adds more complexity to the picture . Not much but a little , and the fact that not all machine shops are familiar with the new tech . Than again for some of us 450 hp is barely enough for a motorcycle . See you guys at Texas World . I like the way you Texans race I'll take mine SUPERSIZE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holster Maker Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 BTW Greg, how did that mod V6 work out? I never heard anything after your "2 short" post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbrown8439 Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 It wasn't a mod V6, it was an old SVO V6 that they used to use in the Nascar Busch series. It worked great right up to the point that it spun a rod bearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluefirepony Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 So I take it your driving an overweight AI car. Hey, I resemble that remark....my car# is the amount of weight I need to drop from the car BTW, while everyone was chatting I think the OP left the room a few days ago ...but I've enjoyed the info exchange Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebullitt Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 You know if you're going to use it for a track car, I'd suggest the Ford Racing Hot Rod 3V set up. It's only 400 pounds fully dressed and includes their Hot Rod cams. I've seen a couple run and the sound NASTY. They have around 350 hp and 330 Tq, so that's a good base. As for the trans, to the best of my limited knowledge, I'd stick with anything Tremec, since that's what is in them from the factory and they're pretty good. Here's the link and details on that engine http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=10584 Good luck on that project!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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