Members Eric W. Posted March 31, 2009 Members Share Posted March 31, 2009 The rules say for dyno compliance and protest purposes that it needs to be done on a Dynojet model. Does this cover dynos like the built-in one at VIR that has a dynojet correction factor? The "VIPER" dyno at VIR is big $ and used for high level testing, etc etc. Would be a shame to not be able to use it for compliance and protest purposes. Since it is there, I believe it would be hard or impossible to actually bring in a dynojet. Worse yet, if people know it cannot be used for compliance, bending of the rules may occur as competitors know that there is no way to enforce dyno sheets at VIR which is one of the most attended and premier venues in the Mid-Atlantic region IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianacole Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 By rule, no, it cannot be used for compliance enforcement. I understand the difficulty in enforcement, and it is unfortunate, but we need to pick a standard model for compliance so that we can be equitable across the board and competitors (and, yes, I'm ignoring the fact that there can be reading differences in Dynojet models based on age, upkeep, etc., but we still need a standard). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Smith Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 The rules say for dyno compliance and protest purposes that it needs to be done on a Dynojet model. Does this cover dynos like the built-in one at VIR that has a dynojet correction factor? The "VIPER" dyno at VIR is big $ and used for high level testing, etc etc. Would be a shame to not be able to use it for compliance and protest purposes. Since it is there, I believe it would be hard or impossible to actually bring in a dynojet. Worse yet, if people know it cannot be used for compliance, bending of the rules may occur as competitors know that there is no way to enforce dyno sheets at VIR which is one of the most attended and premier venues in the Mid-Atlantic region IMO. hmmmm, I wonder why Eric is asking about this..... It does suck that there are so may variables involved in dyno testing...way too easy to cheat, especially when dyno compliance checks are so rare. The official dyno run that I turned in for the 2009 year came from the Viper dyno at VIR with the dynojet correction factor used. It seemed a bit high for my car (I actually had to add 60lbs of ballast due to the difference from my run last year), but that's fine, I'd rather be on the safe side. Plus I know I'm not cheating, so I sleep well at night knowing I'm being fair to the rest of the class (and myself). Same can't be said for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Pascarella Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 There will be more compliance testing this year. I had all GTS3-5 cars impounded on Saturday, unfortunately the guys the left the track early due to rain never got the message . Since the rules say Dynojet, and most of the Mid-Atlantic races are at Summit, I would like to stick to Dynojet assuming the Valley Dyno guy will be there this year. I have a query into Cobetto on his status. Once I find out.......I may let you know;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
///mracer Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 speaking of dyno testing, if we had a dyno done by the Summit guys last August can that still be used for the April race since it is less than 12 months old or do I need a new "09" dyno? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianacole Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 speaking of dyno testing, if we had a dyno done by the Summit guys last August can that still be used for the April race since it is less than 12 months old or do I need a new "09" dyno? Your dyno is good for 12 months, so you're good until August. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
///mracer Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 speaking of dyno testing, if we had a dyno done by the Summit guys last August can that still be used for the April race since it is less than 12 months old or do I need a new "09" dyno? Your dyno is good for 12 months, so you're good until August. great. I do not have a dyno certification form from them, just the Valley dyno print out. I assume that is all I need since they were are Summit right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eric W. Posted April 1, 2009 Author Members Share Posted April 1, 2009 speaking of dyno testing, if we had a dyno done by the Summit guys last August can that still be used for the April race since it is less than 12 months old or do I need a new "09" dyno? Your dyno is good for 12 months, so you're good until August. great. I do not have a dyno certification form from them, just the Valley dyno print out. I assume that is all I need since they were are Summit right? Should be good Matt. Just make sure you put your name on the dyno sheet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMGRacing Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Gents We have a Mustang 500SE 4wd and 2wd Dyno and Test cell in house. We would be happy to help in dyno evaluation for compliance purposes. Please feel free to email me directly. Vist our website @ www.gmgracing.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trackrocket Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 I think this SERIOUSLY limits protests with regards to dyno sheet compliance in the Mid-Atlantic region, especially at VIR. The dyno at Viper is what Eric stated a dyno that supposedly can replicate a Dynojet reading/values...it is a "BIG $$$$$$$" setup and it's a shame it cannot be used for GTS compliance. As for the in house dyno at Summit, owned by RP Performance, it is a Dyno-Dynamics setup...again, can't be used for GTS compliance... THIS SUCKS in my book, just my two cents...as there has been some question as to the compliance of a current GTS competitor who was known to "fudge" a dyno sheet for another GTS class last year...using another platform. This is well known info. that's hinted/suggested and alluded to on several PUBLIC forums, so I'm not making any accusations nor am I specifying...but this totally sucks that we can't make this guy do a dyno at the track, along with a handful of other competitors due to the fact that neither in house dyno is a Dynojet. I'm thinking that a regional rule change should be allowed with respect to dyno make/model, etc. as there would be PLENTY of volunteers that could determine a deviance in the three dynos, the one they use locally, the one at VIR and the one at Summit Point. I don't think we should be held at bay by this rule especially when we are all accutely aware that we have a possible non-compliant car running amongst us. The specifics of this "rule" COMPLETELY leaves cheating WIDE OPEN in our region... The guys that bring the Dynojet to Summit aren't there every time...so it can't be counted on...and the fact that the Viper dyno cannot be used for compliance is just a pure shame...there, I said it twice. Well, what the hell...I'm going to go add 30hp to my car and take another 60lbs out...after all, how are they going to prove what #s I'm supposed to be running at? While I'm at it I'll loosen my throttle cable and get a 230hp dyno sheet from the local race shop that owns a Dynojet and turn that one in...for my 260hp platform. WHY NOT?? Someone did it last year... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxxfish Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Jeff, The saddest part about it is the fact that people are cheating in club racing. For a bottle of cheap sparkling wine and a $12 plaque? OK, maybe for 2 tires? Still pretty sad if you ask me. BTW, I finally got the new car dialed in and turned a 2:05 at VIR last weekend, so ya'll better look out! Max Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eric W. Posted April 16, 2009 Author Members Share Posted April 16, 2009 Im switching to GTS2. If rules compliance cannot be checked in NASA-MA due to the factors above, Im going to have to jump ship to PTA. I suggest other GTS3 competitors do the same. It seems like we all pretty much fall into PTA. Some cars might not, like Porsche 996s, but there arent too many guys that run those in GTS3 anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianacole Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 I understand and fully agree with your feelings. It's nearly impossible to enforce compliance with the mechanisms that have been defined to be in place to do so logistically cannot be. This is definitely something that I am willing visit in the rule change period to see if we can incorporate additional dynamometer models to be used for testing. If this can be done with a correction factor that works effectively and does not leave room for debate/protest of results, it will make it much easier to adopt. I am more than happy to receive a proposal earlier than the rule change period to begin working out the details and nuances of the correction factors and requirements so that when the rule change period begins it's ready to roll. I need someone willing to step up and work on this as I have no knowledge or experience with these machines to be able to develop a fair and reasonable approach to equalizing the results from each. I completely agree with maxxfish - it's absolutely assinine to cheat at this level (or any, in my point of view). Even if 2 tires is on the line. The ultimate result of this is that racers become disenfranchised, move to a different series, the current series folds, and the tires are no longer available. I just don't get this line of thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Pascarella Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Jeff, Eric, and Others: If there is a DynoJet available I will impound, trust me. It is unfortunate the circumstances with Dyno's in our region but there are other rules you can use. Nothing is stopping several guys getting to gether and calling a challenge to spread the potential cost if said person is found to be in compliance. If a challenge is made, the person being challenged will not be given the time work on his/her car. In addition, I will discuss with Ian our situation at VIR and Summit, maybe something can be done but we got to think of nationals as well. Hang in there guys, this takes some time since we are limited to race weekends to police the group. And Eric, based on your club time at VIR you're not going to be easy to beat! Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trackrocket Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 I think Eric is cheating too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSCoupe Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 I would love alternate dyno models for compliance. The AWD Dynojet dynos are few and far between, and getting time on them can be tough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eric W. Posted April 17, 2009 Author Members Share Posted April 17, 2009 Jeff, Eric, and Others: Hang in there guys, this takes some time since we are limited to race weekends to police the group. And Eric, based on your club time at VIR you're not going to be easy to beat! Doug Man, you think my time was good, Randy Mueller turned a 2:04.6 in Bill Heumann's IP car The track was a lot faster than the NASA weekend though. Jeff, I dont cheat. You know the saying right? It's only cheating when you get caught! Actually I was close last year, if it wasnt for the 4rwhp forgiveness, I woulda gotten DQd. Im THAT close to the line Never crossed that line yet though and prolly wont since Ive put my metal hood/trunk on this year to race more BMW Club Races. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
///mracer Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 since our series has very few rules beside the power:weight one, I would think that figuring out this dyno issue is priority one. If there is no way to accurately and consistently check power #'s and prove it at the track, then we should not even have different GTS classes..... just a mid-packer's observation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingDog Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Colin and I did a little Springfield Motorsports Dynojet vs VIPER Superflow comparison... Don't bother. The numbers weren't even close. ~30hp difference on 230hp Mustangs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Smith Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Colin and I did a little Springfield Motorsports Dynojet vs VIPER Superflow comparison... Don't bother. The numbers weren't even close. ~30hp difference on 230hp Mustangs. Matt, out of curiosity, which dyno read higher? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingDog Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 VIPER's STP correction was close. Their dynojet correction was way high. Jimmy Bost and some of the other AI guys went on the dyno specifically to check how far off it was from a dynojet. You can probably get more info from them. Also, the dyno operator cut all my runs short and ran my car extremely hot because he didn't believe the temp gauge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Smith Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Alright, that makes sense. In February, I had my car dyno'd at VIR on the Viper dyno with the dynojet correction factor and it was about 15 hp higher than last year on an actual dynojet machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trackrocket Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 "out of curiosity, which dyno read higher" The one that a certain competitor DID NOT go to! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
///mracer Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 well it looks like Valley dyno will be at Summit this weekend. Any over/under bets for the 996? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gianniy Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Just a lurker who is always interested in these kinds of threads. If your intended target comes up clean what will be your excuse then? and will you accept it as truth or will you just perpetually accuse? In other words will you ever be satisfied? just wondering love to hear the outcome of this one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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