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IMPORTANT-RA-1's allowed for the rest of 2009


JWL

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Folks-

 

The RA-1 will now be allowed for the rest of the year alongside the R888 in AI. This was done to hopefully let you all use up the old RA-1's you might have and also help ease the transition to the 888.

 

Thanks!

 

-JWL

 

P.S. NOT an April Fool's joke!

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I'd suggest locking this one down now as you're about to get a bunch of bitching from guys that gave away their RA1's, guys that bought the more expensive R888's, guys that have raced on the R888's and say they are junk, and guys that are forced to race against RA1's all year on the inferior R888's.

 

Damn,

 

Sidney

CMC #64

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Sidney-

 

Bitching is OK and expected. We have tried to do all we can with this and not everyone will be happy and I'm used to people hollering by now.

 

-JWL

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Sidney-

 

Bitching is OK and expected. We have tried to do all we can with this and not everyone will be happy and I'm used to people hollering by now.

 

-JWL

I know you have tried to do what "you think" is right but when you keep changing your mind after the season has already started it is plain unfair to the competitors.

The "right" thing to do is to make a decision and stick with it!!!!

 

The announcement made today has impacted dozens of people that have already spent $1,000 on R888's that don't last near as long and perform well below what the RA1 does. I now have a set of 888's that I have driven for all of 1 session that will most likely sit for the remainder of the year while I buy a new set of RA1's to get me through 2009.

I am not going to sit back and watch my fellow CMC competitors leave me on the track b/c they are on RA1's and I am on 888's.

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JWL,

What is going to be the availability of RA1's for all classes required to run Toyo's. I am supplying tires for the Rocky Mountain Region and I am having a hard time getting 225/50/15 RA1's for the 944 guys. I also just purchased 30k in tires that are 888's. They will probably now sit here until the RA1's are phased out. Are they continuing production of the RA1 and will there be enough for everybody throughout the year and at Nationals.

Thank you

Tommy

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Sidney-

 

Bitching is OK and expected. We have tried to do all we can with this and not everyone will be happy and I'm used to people hollering by now.

 

-JWL

Just out of curiosity... When it was pointed out a few weeks ago that RA1s were legal all year according to Toyo and NASA press releases, why were those press releases edited? A few weeks ago the press releases said RA1s were legal and you were telling everybody they were not legal. Now the press releases say only R888s are legal and you're telling everybody that RA1s are also legal?
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Matt-

 

I'm not trying to start a fight, but what releases are you talking about? We did announce late last year that we would transition to the R888 at the beginning of the year, we then issued another release extending the joint use of RA-1 and R888 to the first two events in each region, and now we have extended the joint use of both tires until the end of the year.

 

As to the comments about performance and longevity of the R888's, the note below from Jerry Kunzman summarizes the reasons for the extension of time.

 

-JWL

 

Here is some information. Feel free to post as you like:

 

I do know that everyone that submitted object hard data indicated that the R888 heat cycle out faster. This, coupled with the increase in per-tire cost will hit some budgets pretty hard. Furthermore, the performance has proven to be a coin flip, right down the middle. Some may argue one way or another, but any difference is completely negligible, which confirms the hard data from back to back testing, which we did ourselves last year.

 

Therefore, giving people a choice of which tire they want to run should be a good thing. Those that like the R888s (and there are some) can run them. Those that like the RA-1s and/or want to save money can use them.

 

There is no hidden motive, no hidden agenda, no backdoor deal with Toyo. We are simply responding to a need that we see, especially during harder economic times for some.

 

Since there is no proof that the RA-1 tire is any faster than the R888, then it doesn’t make sense to worry about those in spec classes that want to run them. Heck, you might see bigger fields with this lower cost option.

 

We are, as always, trying to do the best in a no-win situation. Our decisions are not always perfect, but I can assure you they are always forthright and sincerely take into account what we feel will be the best for each series.

 

We have been collecting data from events early in the season and evaluating some data from last season. We came to the conclusion that the R888s were, when dialed in, about the same in performance as the RA-1s. Yet they have a higher cost and heat cycle out sooner.

 

We approached Toyo with the data. There wasn’t much to say, except to ask about the viability of going back to RA-1s. This is not something that is good for Toyo, but they want our drivers to be happy. Since the RA-1 has been out of production since last Aug, most (if not all) of the molds are gone. However, there seems to be some decent amount of inventory left on the shelves.

 

Since we made a commitment to Toyo to use the R888; and because of limited supply of RA-1s in some sizes, we couldn’t just discontinue the R888. Plus Toyo really wants our drivers to give it a run for the money. Therefore, we felt that the very best thing to do is to allow both tires for now as we extend the transition period until the end of the year.

 

There is no way to tell what the future will hold at this point. We have agreed to meet with Toyo in a few months and see how things are going. We (Toyo and NASA) can then make a determination for the future (beyond 2009).

 

Feel free to post this message; but only in its entirety.

 

Jerry Kunzman

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There is no way to tell what the future will hold at this point. We have agreed to meet with Toyo in a few months and see how things are going. We (Toyo and NASA) can then make a determination for the future (beyond 2009).

Jerry Kunzman

I can't imagine Toyo is going to put the RA-1 back into full production at this point, so what options does that leave for the future?

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Except for the fact that the RA1 is faster than the R888 despite the difference in width (plenty of evidence in the world challenge times from '07 to '08)... which brings us to our second issue: an AI competitor can run a faster tire on a wider track width since the '09 rules were written to allow for the increased size of the R888. The RA1 should have to run on the '08 track width, the R888 should be allowed the '09 track width. Obviously it's not too late to write that in. That's where Troy and I stand anyways.

 

We invested a lot of time and money trying to get our car up to speed on the R888's and this is a serious blow to the ole' family jewels.

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This past wknd at VIR we had folks on both tires and I didn't hear anyone say anything after sunday's race pro or con.

 

I for one appreciate the ability to use both types for this year at I am sure a loss for Toyo.

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John, how about putting this to bed really quickly and post the data that was submitted, by whom to verify if it was usable data, which kind of car and what the modifications were to get the R888 up to RA1 speeds. Trust me, it isn't just adjusting air pressures. Then we will have a to do list to go make the new tire work on our cars and we will all understand this RA1 vs. R888 isn't a big issue. This will also quickly level the playing field and get us all close in the races again.

 

Here, I will start. RA1's previously started cold at 23lbs, love em at 31 hot. nothing new here. Carcass temps in the 130-140 range in hot pit. Beat on them for 40 minutes and they love it.

 

Same day, same setup, wheels, track temps and weather on R888's...25lb cold, rose to 38 hot. kept dropping pressures. Carcass temps in the 185-205 range, fastest lap times 1 full second slower....slowest laptimes when the R888's went away were gapped by nearly 2 seconds. Car pushed a ton and required 20 more degrees of steering input in the same steady state corners. had to stiffen the rear bar from full soft, to full firm and still pushed, couldn't get the car to rotate even after pulling 2 degrees from the wing and lowering front pressures 2lbs from rear. Even with attempting changes, could not lower lap times to the RA1...I actually found some time with the RA1's too!

 

Most of the dissent we have been seeing is from a lack of answers. Maybe the data from those that have gotten them to work as well as the RA1 would put a lot of that to rest. I am just looking for a thought of how to move forward for all of us....? Either way, we are going to be running R888's next year so we might as well figure them out now! If those with the data, or Toyo can present what they have found for an AI car, we can move in the right direction.

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Here, I will start. RA1's previously started cold at 23lbs, love em at 31 hot. nothing new here. Carcass temps in the 130-140 range in hot pit. Beat on them for 40 minutes and they love it.

 

Same day, same setup, wheels, track temps and weather on R888's...25lb cold, rose to 38 hot. kept dropping pressures. Carcass temps in the 185-205 range, fastest lap times 1 full second slower....slowest laptimes when the R888's went away were gapped by nearly 2 seconds. Car pushed a ton and required 20 more degrees of steering input in the same steady state corners. had to stiffen the rear bar from full soft, to full firm and still pushed, couldn't get the car to rotate even after pulling 2 degrees from the wing and lowering front pressures 2lbs from rear. Even with attempting changes, could not lower lap times to the RA1...I actually found some time with the RA1's too!

 

FWIW: The Miata guys are averaging 4 pounds higher hot temps with the 888's than the RA1's. Most end up with the RA1's at 38 hot, the 88's around 42 hot. Your results may vary. They also say that the 888's don't like a lot of sliding. That causes graining and the tire to wear out faster. I am not saying the 888 is good, just what they have found that works best.

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FWIW: The Miata guys are averaging 4 pounds higher hot temps with the 888's than the RA1's. Most end up with the RA1's at 38 hot, the 88's around 42 hot. Your results may vary. They also say that the 888's don't like a lot of sliding. That causes graining and the tire to wear out faster. I am not saying the 888 is good, just what they have found that works best.

 

We too are getting stories from Miatas, terrible comparison really for our 3000lb V8 Monsters with aero, but they say they are using two sets of tires a weekend to remain competitive because the tires go away so badly. If a 2200lb miata can't keep tires under it... But this is just rumor floating around the paddock...haven't seen any of them with real data.

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Here's some firm data to go by.

 

Chris is right, the R888's like and need more air cold, which will result in higher hot pressures. Hot should be anywhere from 42-45, on average. Sidewall is stiffer so you can run less negative camber (key word is can). The R888 will take a different chassis set up so you will have to spend some time testing. This is a big point to make....YOU WILL HAVE TO DO TESTING TO GET THE R888 TO WORK FOR YOU. It is no different than any other change you make to your car, you have drive it and take data and then make adjustments !!!! I've spent as much as 6 months when I have changed tires on my car in the past before I was faster on the new tire. You have to put the time in......it's part of racing. One weekend won't cut it in most cases. The jury is still out on whether the tire needs to be shaved or not. I will say this, shaving will make the R888 be faster sooner, but that's not to say that not shaving the R888 would be wrong for certain drivers. Again, test, test, test. I would listen to some of the more experienced people on here who have actually run the tire and have hard positive date, i.e. Pat L. Also, to add, running higher pressures in most cases make the tire last longer, not RA-1 longer, but longer than most have stated in the past few weeks on the boards.

 

Just a side note: Graining of the tire usually happens for two significant reasons:

1 - tire has too much grip for the surface that it is being run on

or

2 - the tire has not been brought up to operating temperature gradually

 

In most cases I have seen it has been number 2, but sliding the tire would result in the number 1 conclusion.

 

Here is a point that most overlook in these kinds of situations, YOUR DRIVING STYLE/ABILITY. Smooth is going to be a positive effect on everything in the car...INCLUDING THE TIRES. Be honest with yourself and think hard, have you, the driver, done everything possible to ensure that I am not abusing my equipment with my driving style/ability, car set up or lack of testing data. If you can answer this question with a definitive yes, than you have every right to complain, but if the answer is ...uh hmmm not sure, then you need to take good long hard look at yourself and work on the most expensive piece of equipment in the car...YOU !!

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With RA1's I start out with cold's between 28-32lbs depending on track and temp.

Goal is 38-40lbs hot max.

 

Get good tire temp patterns at -3.2 camber in front and modest toe out for good turn-in.

 

Rear I can only dial in about -1.4 camber and it shows it needs more to use full tire but obviously that would impact braking and traction at trackout significantly.

 

Shaved tires are worth .7-1.5 seconds per lap over new full tread.

 

Perfect heat cycle is 1-8th for me.

 

I can get 25 heat cycles or about 700 miles than tires just go to total junk. After cycle 8 they lose about 1/2 a second to 1 second.

 

That is RA1's. Will be testing R888's shortly

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Phil. answer is Yes.

 

 

<---Mostly frustrated that I am having to chase a new setup again...and it's a drastic change. If that's the case...I am thinking I might just go figure out hoosiers and run ST2. Too much work to figure out how to go slower...

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We too are getting stories from Miatas, terrible comparison really for our 3000lb V8 Monsters with aero, but they say they are using two sets of tires a weekend to remain competitive because the tires go away so badly. If a 2200lb miata can't keep tires under it... But this is just rumor floating around the paddock...haven't seen any of them with real data.

 

I run both a V8 monster & SM. If you look at the contact patch versus weight, it actually favors the AI cars. The Miatas are actually a bit under-tired compared to an AI car. It is a girl's car with little girly tires you know.....

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I'd be interested in hearing from guys who have actually raced 888's. It appears some guys have already raced them and some have done some real world testing. Being that this is amatuer racing, I'd hope guys are willing to share info, but I suppose that isn't always the case. Most of us don't have the time or money to spend several days at a track testing various set ups. I assume most will have to make adjustments during race weekends, and hope to get it resolved sooner, then later. Did anyone run 888's at VIR last weekend?

Regardless of the changes in the new tire, I had always firgured we all have the same tire to work with, so that will be the qualizer. But, beign able to use both tires will make this season interesting, especially at Nationals. Anyone have any RA1s they want to sell?

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You ask for the data so we will deliver!

 

We performed a scientific test in Feb of 2008 to compare the speed of the RA-1 vs. the R888.

 

> A H4 car and H2 car were utilized at the Streets of Willow Springs. No setup changes permitted on either car.

> One set of RA-1's and R888's were swapped between both cars during the day.

> Drivers were Jeremy Croiset (NASA Champion, Pro Experience) and myself (ex AI driver)

> The R888 were used for 48 laps, The RA-1 were used for 54 Laps

> Both sets were shaved to 4/32's for equal comparison.

> Both sets were utilized at the same starting pressures. (Arguably slower for the R888 if they like more press)

 

 

H4 Car Times

R888 Best- 1:01.535

RA-1 Best- 1:01.509

 

H2 Car Times

R888 Best- 1:00.179

RA-1 Best- 1:00.180

 

My guess is that some of you are probably accusing us of fabricating this data and thinking this is a "political" move (we have heard lots of claims lately) but I assure you this is the straight info. Also, Tim Suddard from GRM was in attendance during the day (working on an article) and can confirm this event. Also, I know you are going to ask so here is the AMB DATA.....

http://socal.drivenasa.com/r888test.pdf

 

End Result..... The tires perform exactly the same. Some might argue we had the tire pressures wrong (too low) on the R888 which would hurt the performance. That could be so and if that is the case the R888 has the advantage in speed. I can't confirm or deny this claim as it was not part of our test.

 

The group that doesn't want to believe this truth will say these results don't apply since the cars used weigh different than the AI car (or any other car for that matter). I would argue differently since the H2 car generates MORE corner speed than the AI car and works the tire harder. Also, the tire patch (275mm v 225mm) vs the weight (3000# v. 2250#) yields a very close % of weight vs contact patch on the ground. Lastly, the laps were consistent enough (within tenths and thousands of a second) which eliminate driver inconsistency and truly show an equal comparison.

 

If you are seeing something different in your personal experience, this data would prove that you are the variable causing the differential.

 

We hope this helps.

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Can I get some feedback on the respective track widths for the tires? We've made our decision and plan on running R888's for our few remaining races and Nats. However, I still think we're at a slight disadvantage to the guys on RA1's. Unless it rains.

 

And I'm really sorry, but I can't share much of our testing. Partly because we're still trying to find our a$$ (a broken diff didn't help our progress last weekend). So far though we're fighting similar issues as we found in the touring car this time last year.

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Over on the CMC board, Tony Guaglione, National Director of CMC, has declared that this extension does not apply to CMC and that the R888 is the official and only legal tire in the series once the pre-existing two-event extension has expired. Is this is the official, final word for CMC?

 

Here's what was posted:

 

Guys,

No one told me anything, I'm just learning about this right now as I was out of town.

Look, NASA told us the first 2 races are allowed on RA1's.

That's it, since no one contacted me about this I will say that that's the CMC rule.

Our series does not have mid-year changes and doing this is just not right.

Our spec tire is the R888, thats it..we won't run on 2 different tires.

So our tire is the R888, dont show up with anything else at the nationals either.

This is final.

_________________

Tony Guaglione

CMC National Director

CMC2 #55

03 Mustang GT

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