IMPORTANT-RA-1's allowed for the rest of 2009

[ST#97]

You ask for the data so we will deliver!

 

We performed a scientific test in Feb of 2008 to compare the speed of the RA-1 vs. the R888.

 

> A H4 car and H2 car were utilized at the Streets of Willow Springs. No setup changes permitted on either car.

> One set of RA-1's and R888's were swapped between both cars during the day.

> Drivers were Jeremy Croiset (NASA Champion, Pro Experience) and myself (ex AI driver)

> The R888 were used for 48 laps, The RA-1 were used for 54 Laps

> Both sets were shaved to 4/32's for equal comparison.

> Both sets were utilized at the same starting pressures. (Arguably slower for the R888 if they like more press)

 

 

H4 Car Times

R888 Best- 1:01.535

RA-1 Best- 1:01.509

 

H2 Car Times

R888 Best- 1:00.179

RA-1 Best- 1:00.180

 

My guess is that some of you are probably accusing us of fabricating this data and thinking this is a "political" move (we have heard lots of claims lately) but I assure you this is the straight info. Also, Tim Suddard from GRM was in attendance during the day (working on an article) and can confirm this event. Also, I know you are going to ask so here is the AMB DATA.....

http://socal.drivenasa.com/r888test.pdf

 

End Result..... The tires perform exactly the same. Some might argue we had the tire pressures wrong (too low) on the R888 which would hurt the performance. That could be so and if that is the case the R888 has the advantage in speed. I can't confirm or deny this claim as it was not part of our test.

 

The group that doesn't want to believe this truth will say these results don't apply since the cars used weigh different than the AI car (or any other car for that matter). I would argue differently since the H2 car generates MORE corner speed than the AI car and works the tire harder. Also, the tire patch (275mm v 225mm) vs the weight (3000# v. 2250#) yields a very close % of weight vs contact patch on the ground. Lastly, the laps were consistent enough (within tenths and thousands of a second) which eliminate driver inconsistency and truly show an equal comparison.

 

If you are seeing something different in your personal experience, this data would prove that you are the variable causing the differential.

 

We hope this helps.

 

So you are going to use LIGHT WEIGHT honda data to force a rules set for AI.... That's pretty narrow minded really. And if your hondas are carrying more corner speed than your AI cars...something is TERRIBLY wrong!

 

After reading your response....to paraphrase it must mean I can't drive.

 

Thanks. Done.

[FlyingDog]

Matt-

 

I'm not trying to start a fight, but what releases are you talking about? We did announce late last year that we would transition to the R888 at the beginning of the year, we then issued another release extending the joint use of RA-1 and R888 to the first two events in each region, and now we have extended the joint use of both tires until the end of the year.

 

As to the comments about performance and longevity of the R888's, the note below from Jerry Kunzman summarizes the reasons for the extension of time.

 

-JWL

John,

Posted Jan 27th pre-edit: http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3141" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.nasaproracing.com/news/2009/toyo-tires-remains-presenting.html

Toyo Tires Remains Presenting Sponsor for NASA Championships and Continues Generous Contingency Program

 

RICHMOND, CA (Jan 23, 2009) — The National Auto Sport Association (NASA) is pleased to announce that Toyo Tires will remain the presenting sponsor of the 2009 NASA Championships to be held at Miller Motorsports Park September 10-13, 2009. Toyo has continued their generous contingency program that allows top-finishing racers at the Championship event to walk away with up to $4,000 for a class win. The contingency program worth over $200,000 in cash and "Toyo Dollars" will be open to competitors competing on the Toyo Proxes R888 or RA1 competition DOT radial Tire at the Championship event. It was announced late last year that NASA was adding Miller Motorsports Park in Tooele, Utah as the site for the 2009 and 2010 National Championship events and that Mid Ohio Sports Car Course would remain the East Coast site for the 2001 and 2012 events. The addition of the Miller facility to the roster is a key part in NASA's plan which will rotate the event every few years to make it more accessible to a larger group of racers and help continue to attract a greater number of participants. The Toyo contingency program will make contingency awards available to every class at the 2009 NASA Championship event. Complete details on the 2009 Toyo Tires contingency program for the NASA Championships including payout structure and requirements are contained in the links provided below.

http://www.nasaproracing.com/news/2009/Toyo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The GENERAL REBATE AWARD APPLICATION form must be filled out by the competitor prior to each event and have the signature of a NASA technical official who has verified the use of Toyo Proxes RA1 or R888 tires and the required decal placement. This form can be obtained from NASA. Also see the Championship Award.

[King Matt]

I'll answer for John! I think you misunderstood that release. The RA-1 and R888 were always intended to be included in contingency awards for Time Trials classes, which don't have a spec tire, hence the wording.

[Tommy55]

After reading your response....to paraphrase it must mean I can't drive.

 

Thanks. Done.

 

I wasn't going to say anything just kidding MFW

[FlyingDog]

I'll answer for John! I think you misunderstood that release. The RA-1 and R888 were always intended to be included in contingency awards for Time Trials classes, which don't have a spec tire, hence the wording.

You mean this wording?

Toyo Tire (USA) Corporation will provide sponsorship and support for the 2009 race season of the National Auto Sport Association (NASA) as follows:

 

The portion of the Toyo contingency program available to the 2009 regional racing competitors will be applied to only these classes:

American Iron (AI)

Camaro-Mustang Challenge (CMC)

Camaro-Mustang Challenge 2 (CMC2)

Spec. Miata (SM)

Showroom Spec. Miata (SM)

944-Spec Spec Focus

Factory Five Challenge Honda Challenge 1 (H1)

Honda Challenge 2 (H2)

Honda Challenge 3 (H3)

Honda Challenge 4 (H4)

Honda Challenge 5 (H5)

Spec E30

 

* To be eligible for this program, competitors must be using the Toyo Proxes RA1 or R888 competition tire. Use of a different Toyo tire product does not qualify for this program.

If not, those TT guys must be doing pretty well with $200,000 in awards just for them.

[bpanther]

So..... based on the above comments that the 888 may not work well on an AI car... shouldn't we all be happy that you can still use an RA1

[D Algozine]

So..... based on the above comments that the 888 may not work well on an AI car... shouldn't we all be happy that you can still use an RA1

 

Those that have RA1s will be happy, those that don't, will be trying to figure out how to make the 888's work. Personally, at this point, I don't know enough to be conserned about the performance of the 888's, however, I am conserned about how the differences between the two tires will effect races. Perhaps, it will be minimal, but if it's not, then the real bitching will start.

I see much potential in black market RA1's. Maybe 20/20 will end up doing an investigation on the seedy side of the spec tire wars in AI.

 

BTW, thanks to Ryan and everyone else who has contributed real info.

[Red Tornado]

At VIR folks ran both tires and I didn't hear much difference in the dry.

 

Time will tell but trust me if someone thinks us AI racers will pay extra for RA1's and not try the R888's they are crazy.

 

I don't want to carry 2 sets of tires from nationals again so I know I will be on R888's as soon as these sets are toast one way or another.

[jeffburch]

I fixed this for you MK.

jb

Over on the CMC board, Tony Guaglione, National Director of CMC, has declared that this extension does not apply to CMC and that the R888 is the official and only legal tire in the series once the pre-existing two-event extension has expired. Is this is the official, final word for CMC?

 

Here's what was posted:

 

“As of now, I am in control here in the White House.”

[trackboss]

Without making this a long post; IMO, the bad part of this whole deal is not the tires. Its the fact that the rules in AI have been a moving target since day one. Until the sanctioning body can prove that they have solid rules and can enforce them there really is no incentive for serious racers to attend. AI is nearly dead. Why on earth would such an unecessary change be done after the season has begun?! Whether the tires are slower/faster/ better/worse/cheap/ whatever. It doesn't matter.

[ssfab]

The thing that bugs me the most about this whole deal is not that you changed your mind midway through the season but you ignore the one real problem which is the trackwith issue other than that everyone has a choice.

 

JWL please take care of the one real issue forget all the bs about faster or slower thats only being fair.

[bpanther]

So..... based on the above comments that the 888 may not work well on an AI car... shouldn't we all be happy that you can still use an RA1

 

Those that have RA1s will be happy, those that don't, will be trying to figure out how to make the 888's work. Personally, at this point, I don't know enough to be conserned about the performance of the 888's, however, I am conserned about how the differences between the two tires will effect races. Perhaps, it will be minimal, but if it's not, then the real bitching will start.

I see much potential in black market RA1's. Maybe 20/20 will end up doing an investigation on the seedy side of the spec tire wars in AI.

 

BTW, thanks to Ryan and everyone else who has contributed real info.

 

DA, Great question. Based on what we saw when 944 switched over last year is that the guys who were fast on RA1s were magically faster than those slower people still on RA1s. And the racers who were slow on the RA1 were somehow just as slow on a 888!!!! Go figure!?!?!?

 

We had people setting new track records on the 888.... day? weather? tires? who knows - that I can't put my finger on.

 

Our other hard datapoint is that people were physically wearing out the 888 in a weekend until they changed settings as recommended by the Toyo engineer who came out to an event to help us.

[philstireservice]

So..... based on the above comments that the 888 may not work well on an AI car... shouldn't we all be happy that you can still use an RA1

 

Those that have RA1s will be happy, those that don't, will be trying to figure out how to make the 888's work. Personally, at this point, I don't know enough to be conserned about the performance of the 888's, however, I am conserned about how the differences between the two tires will effect races. Perhaps, it will be minimal, but if it's not, then the real bitching will start.

I see much potential in black market RA1's. Maybe 20/20 will end up doing an investigation on the seedy side of the spec tire wars in AI.

 

BTW, thanks to Ryan and everyone else who has contributed real info.

 

DA, Great question. Based on what we saw when 944 switched over last year is that the guys who were fast on RA1s were magically faster than those slower people still on RA1s. And the racers who were slow on the RA1 were somehow just as slow on a 888!!!! Go figure!?!?!?

 

We had people setting new track records on the 888.... day? weather? tires? who knows - that I can't put my finger on.

 

Our other hard datapoint is that people were physically wearing out the 888 in a weekend until they changed settings as recommended by the Toyo engineer who came out to an event to help us.

 

 

Bingo !! (in bold)

[ST#97]

 

Our other hard datapoint is that people were physically wearing out the 888 in a weekend until they changed settings as recommended by the Toyo engineer who came out to an event to help us.

 

 

Bingo !! (in bold)

 

I am sort of lazy...can we just do a group buy and buy Toyo...? Then make an executive decision to re-start production of the RA1 and trash the R888? Then we wouldn't have to turn a single wrench on our cars or adjust our racing budgets. Maybe we could get a stimulus to accomplish this?!

 

Oh, and while you are at it, go tell spec miata and Spec E30 to change their SPEC suspension parts to make an new tire work right!

[firehawkclone]

This is BS!

 

I bought 2 sets of R888 and almost gave away the RA1's, and now there legal.......BS!

 

This is simple, the AI directors need to step up and do what Tony did in CMC!

[Raybob9289]

I'll take anybody's 275/40ZR17 R888's.

There junk, give them to me.

[b_tone]

This is BS!

 

I bought 2 sets of R888 and almost gave away the RA1's, and now there legal.......BS!

 

This is simple, the AI directors need to step up and do what Tony did in CMC!

 

I am pretty sure that JWL has veto power over anything that Tony G says. Infact, I read that JWL commented that Tony was incorrect about what tires would be legal in CMC The rest of the year. See page 3 of this very thread for that.

[firehawkclone]

This is BS!

 

I bought 2 sets of R888 and almost gave away the RA1's, and now there legal.......BS!

 

This is simple, the AI directors need to step up and do what Tony did in CMC!

 

I am pretty sure that JWL has veto power over anything that Tony G says. Infact, I read that JWL commented that Tony was incorrect about what tires would be legal in CMC The rest of the year. See page 3 of this very thread for that.

 

Thats to bad...... It would be nice to have a non moving rule book!

 

Thanks!

[ssfab]

I agree with you John

 

 

Troy Stacy

[Red Tornado]

If anyone wants to get rid of those R888's dirt cheap I will be ablso more than willing to take them off your hands.

[philstireservice]

You want to hear something funny???

 

The Spec Miata guys (SCCA) are starting to dial in the R888......the key is being smooth.

[tacovini]

You want to hear something funny???

 

The Spec Miata guys (SCCA) are starting to dial in the R888......the key is being smooth.

 

You mean....There's hope off on the horizon, Phil ?!?!?!

[nape]

...the key is being smooth.

 

Awww, shit.

[marshallmosty]

...the key is being smooth.

But we're cavemen driving 3000lb lead sleds, many resembling a Farimont in suspension layout. I guess point and shoot won't work anymore. Sawing at the wheel will no longer be rewarded. (Nor was it really on the RA1's)

[tacovini]

...the key is being smooth.

 

Awww, shoo-shiddily-diddily.

 

Don't fret....maybe we could rename the series "American Platinum"....that's smooth!